Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Ron5]

You wouldn't get much change out of 2 billion for 6 Rivers.

[Caribbean]

You wouldn't get much change out of 2 billion for 6 Rivers.

Or you could get 30 or so Vard 90s

[Ron5]

If the RN aspired to reduce their standards to that of the Irish navy, you might have a point but seeing as they don't ...

[Repulse]

You wouldn't get much change out of 2 billion for 6 Rivers.

Why? 5 new B2 Rivers plus support for all 5 came in at £635mn. Even with inflation, 6 new ones should be about £800mn.

For about £500mn, the RN could get 3 more B2s and upgrade all as detailed here: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/improvi ... on-part-2/

[donald_of_tokyo]

OPV 60-90M GBP
Patrol Frigate (gun, helo) 150-200M GBP (as Holland)
light-Light Frigate (+SAM, HMS) 250M-400M GBP (as Rumanian LF)
heavy-Light Frigate (+CAPTAS) ~500M GBP (as FTI)
full-fat frigate (+landattack + more) 600-750M GBP (as FREMM-Fr, T26)

Calling light frigate as pimped-up OPV is equivalent to
calling Type26 as pimped-up version of Malaysian Lekiu class light frigate.

They differ. Big difference among OPV and T26 is the main reason lighter frigate issue comes in. There's many tasks an OPV can do. But, also many tasks OPV cannot while T26 is not needed.

[ArmChairCivvy]

There's many tasks an OPV can do. But, also many tasks OPV cannot while T26 is not needed.

Well put; we are addressing the gap.

Patrol Frigate (gun, helo) 150-200M GBP (as Holland)
light-Light Frigate (+SAM, HMS**) 250M-400M GBP (as Rumanian LF)

**what's this HMS?

Not sure what the latter is (hulls for Hollands also came from Romania). Take the Hollands, make them a little bit less beautiful, ie.

- a little bit shorter (and/but "tubbier")

and then

you have enough tonnage for the kind of range/ endurance listed, space can be found for fitting/ retrofitting one of the CAPTAS solutions

while you up the unit cost for only some in the class

[Repulse]

There's many tasks an OPV can do. But, also many tasks OPV cannot while T26 is not needed.

Agreed, but that suggests is a 3 tier navy. I am fully on board with a navy which has depth and breadth of assets, but have to be realistic with the funds available.

Evolving the River design and buying more T26s is the best way to get to maximise cash. 2-3 more T26s plus 3 more Rivers combined with an upgrade programme gets my vote.

[marktigger]

buying more Type 26 yes but how do you crew them?

[Ron5]

B2 Rivers are/were built to RN frigate standards. OPV's e.g. Becketts, are not. There was an online article that carefully described the differences. Sorry but I cannot remember where. Maybe Think Defence.

Type 31's will be built in the 2030's, I think you're all forgetting prices will go up a lot by then. Military price inflation is savage.

[Ron5]

buying more Type 26 yes but how do you crew them?

You'll have 20 years to solve that problem.

[marktigger]

i think the manning crisis is going to get worse not better

[Ron5]

There's many tasks an OPV can do. But, also many tasks OPV cannot while T26 is not needed.

Agreed, but that suggests is a 3 tier navy. I am fully on board with a navy which has depth and breadth of assets, but have to be realistic with the funds available.

Evolving the River design and buying more T26s is the best way to get to maximise cash. 2-3 more T26s plus 3 more Rivers combined with an upgrade programme gets my vote.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I assume you mean an improved River with at least a permanent hangar.

[Ron5]

i think the manning crisis is going to get worse not better

I fear you may be right.

Brexit costs will have to come out of somebody's budget and with Health, Education, Pensions & Aid budgets fenced off, there's not many other places to go.

[Repulse]

I'm inclined to agree with you. I assume you mean an improved River with at least a permanent hangar.

Possibly, though even a retractable one would be a step forward. The Black Swan frigate was a similar length than the B2 Rivers and whilst a longer ship may be beneficial it's not essential.

Allowing an offensive Wildcat to be deployed, adding a 57mm gun, additional side Sigma Seahawk gun / missile platforms and a rear CIWS to give enough defensive punch, is what I am thinking of.

[marktigger]

a pimped river is a complete waste of money

[Repulse]

a pimped river is a complete waste of money

A retractable hanger is far from a waste of money. What is a waste of money is reinventing a T31e light frigate when there are plenty on the market already.

[donald_of_tokyo]

**what's this HMS?

Sorry, I meant Hull Mounted Sonar.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I assume you mean an improved River with at least a permanent hangar.

Possibly, though even a retractable one would be a step forward. The Black Swan frigate was a similar length than the B2 Rivers and whilst a longer ship may be beneficial it's not essential.
Allowing an offensive Wildcat to be deployed, adding a 57mm gun, additional side Sigma Seahawk gun / missile platforms and a rear CIWS to give enough defensive punch, is what I am thinking of.

If we can go with 2 more T26s and 2 "enlarged and up-armed River B2" = River B3 as you summarized, it will fit within "2B GBP" (although this number is just speculation).

We can even forward-base two River B3 for FIGS+APT-S combined. One always around Falklands Islands, and one some times visiting nations around south Atlantic and sometimes be at long maintenance (as HMS Clyde did in South Africa early this year).

This will even free up 1 River B2 from FIGS, to be forward-based at Gib for Med. operations.

[Opinion3]

With extra sonar sets and the rest of the gubbins the T26 will have what is the point of "reinventing" a second platform to utilise this kit? (see my previous comments that the MOD has purchased 3 extra sets of kits to ensure the three T26s do not cannibalise three in service hosts). I am still really struggling with the concept that it is cheaper to design, tool and build a second class.......

If the size is saving money then some serious capabilities must be being removed. Previously the quiet hull has been the obvious explanation, but that no longer applies if there are 11 sonar sets being used as the implications are that the new class is using these. However if we were to go 11 T26s and 5 T31s that I can grasp.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the MOD has purchased 3 extra sets of kits to ensure the three T26s do not cannibalise three in service hosts

What is NOT said in the public sphere is also propaganda - and people believe it all the time. Square this circle: The first frigates to be decommissioned, within the T23 total number, will be of the GP ilk and replaced - has never been said that it will happen on the day, but in that order - by the T26s. How could you ever move any TAS sets across (and even the one used for training went to sea a god while ago)?

[marktigger]

a pimped river is a complete waste of money

A retractable hanger is far from a waste of money. What is a waste of money is reinventing a T31e light frigate when there are plenty on the market already.

correct but the designs aren't from BaE's drawing office they are from other companies. The early ministerial statements were very clear it was about preserving the capability in Scotland IE keeping BaE's design office alive. Not a bad thing overall but expensive.

[ArmChairCivvy]

preserving the capability in Scotland IE keeping BaE's design office alive. Not a bad thing overall but expensive

When you combine the words BAES, Scotland and design office/ team, they do often come up. But are you sure all three were used then, because the most unique capability that BAE (and only BAE) offers in Scotland (and only in Scotland) is the military fitting out yard
- the design team(theirs, somebody else's or a combined one) could be, say, in Bath... and nothing would be lost for the country (the UK)

[shark bait]

Three more sonar sets! That is very welcome news.

Best way forward now is a common hull (like Venator or Spartan), three equipped as ASW escorts, three equipped as patrol frigates.

[Ron5]

Maybe they are leasing the 3 new sets.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Maybe they are leasing

Thales pays x for their bonds, to finance the company

The Treasury pays Y, to finance to country, the MoD and to refinance any old debt (that was at a higher rate).

It would take a Gordon Brown to come to a deal... may be someone else is keen to make the Balance Sheet look prettier?
- In which case I would call it B/S

[GibMariner]

Quick trivial pursuit question: the T23s are being modified to carry a different main missile system than when they entered service. What was the last RN ship or class to receive the same treatment?

(Moved from Type 26 news thread)
The only ones that come to mind right now are the 5 'Batch 3A' Leanders (Andromeda, Hermione, Jupiter, Scylla, Charybdis) which had their Sea Cats replaced with GWS-25 Sea Wolf. The refits ended up costing almost as much as a new frigate. HMS Penelope had also been fitted with Sea Wolf in the early 70s as a trials ship, but it was removed in a later refit that modified her to the Batch 2 standard.