Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Spinflight]

Khareef class?

They built three for Oman.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Khareef class?
They built three for Oman.

see 00:43
Very different one.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Very impressive Globally Deployable Multi-mission Exhibition Booth.

[shark bait]

income was far, far above

Income does not equal cost of employment.

As for calling the RFA non core, then perhaps you ought to look again at that, and let us know how the RN would get along without them.

The RFA are a support function. They are critical to the operation of the RN, but they are still none core.

[jonas]

Pure semantics

[donald_of_tokyo]

Why BREXIT needs increases fishery protection? I mean, how are the modern fishery protection tasks formed?

Iceland has comparable EEZ to UK. Coast guard is made of 3 OPVs. Is that a big problem for them? Faroe islands's EEZ is also large. They have only small Patrol Vessel. In both nations, fishery is important income, and they both are not a member of EU.

If I remember correctly, fishery vessels are pre-registered. Also I read somewhere that surveillance with airplane can do many of the job. Even with BREXIT, you must have some treaty on fishery with EU. It will not work?

Sorry, I just do not know how the modern fishery protection tasks are done.

[Spinflight]

Falklands Islands EEZ is huge, but we only routinely deploy a single OPV.

Iceland usually has Nato deployments, often including a Nato badged E-3. They still have more MPAs than us though (1). Their geographic remoteness works in their favour.

How is it done? Well it depends upon the Government's final policy however as they haven't yet repealed the 1964 convention it looks as though the best we can hope for is that foreign vessels are allowed to fish between 6 and 12 miles from our coasts, but not in our EEZ.

Barmy? Yep and will massively complicate policing.

Letter to your MP should you feel that this should be addressed.

http://ffl.org.uk/letter-to-mp/



Should you wish to retwit...

So we'll have all sorts of foreign vessels happily able to transit our EEZ ( hopefully without their nets deployed but who knows) to fish close inshore. Some of which is in very busy shipping lanes, with little to no air support from MPAs. Some of which is close or adjacent to EU waters... Waters indeed which they think they have owned for the last 40 years.

As we can't do a bloody thing about EU registered fishing vessels our own protection squadron is really there to counterbalance the Icelandic one, which as you say has three vessels. We'd still lose though, theirs, as they learned during the cod wars are ice hardened, which allows ramming and all sorts of wonderful shenanigans. And relations with Iceland haven't really improved since the cod wars, Gordon Brown nicked lots of their money using anti-terrorist legislation about a decade ago. Hence why we never form the Nato patrols on Iceland.

Iceland just has to spot a blip on radar or AIS and tell them to bugger off. Hardly a similar situation, though very similar to our own situation in the Falklands.

Don't think that our P-8s are going to help out much either. All five of them will be tasked with the same priority. Firstly the deterrent. Secondly the deterrent. Thirdly the deterrent and maybe some light coordination of SAR if it doesn't affect the first three priorities.

MPAs can do some of it, if the fishermen are stupid, in good weather. Which is lolz in the North sea. The Canadians had MPAs though and couldn't bring prosecutions against Spanish fishermen without boarding or conclusive photographic evidence. Said fishermen were not however stupid and simply wouldn't fish if they heard an MPA. Or would simply drag their nets in if a warship turned up.

Hence they took to buzzing the suspect vessels with CF-18s at decent chat. Lucrative business though so the Spanish carried on.

They ended up not just using their Upholders, but also modifying them to satisfy the court requirements to bring prosecutions. IIRC it had to be witnessed by a fishy official of some sort and with GPS evidence of location. Hence fishy officials were embarked ( whether they liked it or not it appeared!) and their periscopes upgraded with GPS. Became a routine tasking.

Took them years to beat the Spanish off, who happily travelled across the Atlantic to plunder their waters.

One rather suspects it wouldn't be quite as easy for us being closer to their home ports.

The stakes are high as a full hold of decent fish can net you serious cash ( millions in some cases). Or lose you the ship if caught and impounded. Inclement weather, fog, nighttime and all the other variables which make naval activities far more complicated than if every sea were a milk pond are opportunities for a quick navigational error or three. I'm not even sure when the last time we impounded a vessel was, except under safety regulations if docked at our ports.

I checked a couple of years ago and couldn't find any cases brought whatsoever. Which basically tells you that we haven't been looking given the constant complaints from our own fishing fleet.

[Jensy]

Khareef class?
They built three for Oman.

see 00:43
Very different one.

From 1:30 you can also see a 90m variant (behind) with some box launchers alongside the superstructure. Looks like a River Class on steroids.

It seems BAE are hedging their bets with a lot of vessels smaller than a T26.

Either that, or the Gulf corvette business is booming...

Jensy

[ArmChairCivvy]

the Gulf corvette business is booming...

It is, but already captured by France.

[Gabriele]

Italy, not France.

[ArmChairCivvy]

"biennial IDEX event in Abu Dhabi, of which the Naval Defence Conference is part.

Three of the Baynunah warships ordered by the UAE have already been delivered and a fourth vessel is due for delivery in April. The fifth and sixth will be delivered in 2016.

The first Baynunah vessel was built in France, but the last three will be built in the UAE from scratch, according to Mazrouei."

Things are moving so fast there that wiki-isms are left behind: e.g. the Visbys are not the largest warships with hulls of composites any more (bigger ones sail in the Gulf; obviously an appreciation of seamines as a threat in the shallow waters)."

And not all is what it seems in that region, anyway:
"www.timesofisrael.com/tv-company...buil ... i-warships Cached
A company building warships for the Israel Navy is owned by the family of Samir Moqbel, who was Lebanon’s defense minister until last week"
- Abu-Dhabi-ists are involved as well, not only for financial gain, but tech transfer

Summa summarum: the UK will be very late in the game (we cannot have our pie as others have eaten it already, paraphrasing the PM)

[RAF>FAN]

Now that the refitted Type 23s are coming back into service I was wondering, as a non knowledgeable uninformed person, how they compare to more modern ASW frigates.

I have always been a big fan of the 23. To me it looks like what a frigate should look like, Its the right size, the right displacement but bearing in mind that its getting a bit long in the tooth even after this last major upgrade can it still cut it today compared to the newer frigates that are planned and coming into service. Is it still relevant?

[shark bait]

Despite their age, 8 of them remain among the premier sub hunters, optimized hull, very capable sonar and supports an excellent helicopter, if there's a Sub out there, a T23 is as likely to find it as any other.

With the T23 now fitted with a capable radar and surface to air missile, it's very capable at defending it's self too. There's a whole other bunch incremental updates too, new engines, new mess deck, new computer systems, the platform is being well looked after in its mature years.

They will be very good escorts for the carriers during their early years until the T26 takes over.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Despite their age, 8 of them remain among the premier sub hunters, optimized hull, very capable sonar and supports an excellent helicopter, if there's a Sub out there, a T23 is as likely to find it as any other.

With the T23 now fitted with a capable radar and surface to air missile, it's very capable at defending it's self too. There's a whole other bunch incremental updates too, new engines, new mess deck, new computer systems, the platform is being well looked after in its mature years.

They will be very good escorts for the carriers during their early years until the T26 takes over.

You have forgotten the crew, and the RN's recent pedigree as NATO's, if not the world's, premiere ASW force/experts.

[marktigger]

coupled with an excellent Helicopter in the Merlin

[Pongoglo]

Yeah - but with Harpoon going it will need an SSM....

[jonas]

So gentlemen, what do you read between the lines in regards to this announcement :-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ition.html

Note. Perhaps the wrong thread if the MOD wishes to move it.

[ArmChairCivvy]

No, it is in the right place (perhaps with a parallel in the general proc thread):

"The RAN uses both the Aegis and Saab combat systems in its Anzac frigates and Air Warfare Destroyers. Given the navy’s familiarity with both and their interoperability, Defence will choose one of them for the new frigates.

Mr Pyne said the process of spending $195 billion on defence over 10 years had begun. “Making sure as much as possible of that is spent in Australia is really bearing fruit.” "

SAAB has found a new homeland, given that its radar [from its divison down there, in ozzie land] was already a given in the RFP for the frigates... hard to see how the other contender could rival the CMS-cum-radar manufacturer's offer.

[Engaging Strategy]

So I've recently been modelling various different build schedules and escort fleet compositions for the RN. Yielded some interesting results imo.

Firstly, the original 13 Type 26 at a 1.5 yr build interval winds up producing a ~15 year decline in escort numbers, down to 15 at the lowest point before climbing back to 19. It also winds up with the 6 Type 45 replacements being built concurrently (on the basis of an estimated lifespan of 30yrs for the T45s) with the last 5 Type 26s. I think there may have been more to the decision to curtail Type 26 at 8 hulls than cost alone.

graphwrite-8.png

Alternatively, even with quite a leisurely build schedule for Type 31 (1 shipbuild/2yrs and a cap of 5 hulls) concurrent with Type 26 from 2027 onwards that big drop in numbers essentially disappears, with the fleet hitting 18 escorts at the lowest. With Type 26 capped at 8 hulls it also allows a transition straight into work on the Type 45 replacements, possibly even based on an adapted Type 26.

graphwrite-9.png

Now this is where it starts to get interesting, a build tempo for type 31 similar to type 26 (1.5 years/shipbuild) with no cap sees the escort fleet increase a little in the early 2030s before pushing into the low 20s by the end of the decade.

graphwrite-16.png

Finally, possibly only realistic if Type 31 is less frigate and more a corvette/OPV, is an uncapped one year build cycle which sees the number of ships increase from the early 2030s to the high 20s by the end of the decade.

graphwrite-20.png

Make of these what you will, but I found it quite an interesting thought experiment.

[seaspear]

Earlier comments published were on the the practice of, to paraphrase extending the the serice life of the R.N ships, instead of perhaps selling and replacing earlier ,if type 45 was sold after say twenty years then a program to design its replacement could begin now ,certainly the better return price of a twenty year old type 45 in its prime could be put to development costs of its replacement

[marktigger]

given the history of the type 45 is there likely to be any interest in them 2nd hand?

[seaspear]

Any issues the type 45 have are very likely to be addressed sooner than later ,future upgrades are only likely to make them more marketable while they have some significant service life ahead of them .

[Opinion3]

We appear to have more luck selling 2nd hand warships than new ones so maybe not such a mad idea

[Zero Gravitas]

I think there may have been more to the decision to curtail Type 26 at 8 hulls than cost alone.

Make of these what you will, but I found it quite an interesting thought experiment.

Clever. Seems like a reasonable assumption given the numbers you show.

[marktigger]

We appear to have more luck selling 2nd hand warships than new ones so maybe not such a mad idea

That all works as long as the ships are replaced.