Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[dmereifield]

Do they really lack quality? If so, by how much and on what measures?

[Jake1992]

It just makes it even clearer that the even increased poultry 2.2% is just not enough, I can honestly see a new Cold War starting by 2030 but this time on 2 fronts with both China and Russia being a problem for the west. Unlike the last Cold War we won’t be able to solely concentrate on the N.A and Europe as our interests also lying in the Far East shipping lanes.

[Lord Jim]

Problem is no Government is going to raise Defence spending to the level required to have meaningful forces available both assigned to NATO and operating in the far east. Whilst we may get involved in a major conflict as long as Russia doesn't start playing up at the same time, it is going to be up to the US and its allies in that region to contest any aggressive moves by China, be they overt, covert or "Grey".

[Jake1992]

Problem is no Government is going to raise Defence spending to the level required to have meaningful forces available both assigned to NATO and operating in the far east. Whilst we may get involved in a major conflict as long as Russia doesn't start playing up at the same time, it is going to be up to the US and its allies in that region to contest any aggressive moves by China, be they overt, covert or "Grey".

They may not before the time as always governments are reactive not proactive but if a new Cold War on 2 front does break out as I can strongly see happening then the government of the day will have no real choice but to bring spending back up to the levels of the old days.

Like I said unlike in the last Cold War this time around both close to home but also very vital trading lanes will be threatened, we won’t be able to rely on others to protect what’s vital to us if we won’t contribute to the protection.

I can honestly see the 2030s being a very disabling time so HMG should start to look at defence as not just what I says on the tin but a means to increase economic growth vis boosted manufacturing and ship building along with taking large numbers of people off benefits.

[SW1]

Were are these vital U.K. Far East trading lanes, what’s in them coming to the U.K. and going from the U.K. and what counties are sending/receiving them.

If this trade is coming from/to China then worrying about it being under threat from China in these lanes seems rather mute.

[BlueD954]

Were are these vital U.K. Far East trading lanes, what’s in them coming to the U.K. and going from the U.K. and what counties are sending/receiving them.

If this trade is coming from/to China then worrying about it being under threat from China in these lanes seems rather mute.

Not just China and are we still in colonial times calling it the Far East while others call the region the Indo-Pacific or East Asia?

[Scimitar54]

If a major crisis/conflict arose in the Far East and were to be of any duration, The Russians would be likely to exploit the situation to their advantage (and our disadvantage). That would likely be the case, even possibly as a result of a covert agreement to act in concert with the PRC. :

Anyone for 4%? mrgreen:

[SW1]

Were are these vital U.K. Far East trading lanes, what’s in them coming to the U.K. and going from the U.K. and what counties are sending/receiving them.

If this trade is coming from/to China then worrying about it being under threat from China in these lanes seems rather mute.

Not just China and are we still in colonial times calling it the Far East while others call the region the Indo-Pacific or East Asia?

The Far East is a fairly well defined geographic region so I will continue to call it that for such purposes.

[ArmChairCivvy]

calling it the Far East while others call the region the Indo-Pacific or East Asia?

Us living nicely scattered along the historic Prime Meridian of the World - Longitude 0º should not be ashamed of the Far East label... we must have forgotten though where Far West is situated. Every major inhabited place or centre of global commerce was measured in terms of its distance East (or West) from this line.
- while at it (and accepting the rationale for and usefulness of the Indo-Pacific label) I would take issue with East Asia. Tell me where these things have their break-lines, so that overlap does not get to blur what we are talking about on any occasion:
- East Asia
- SE Asia
- North Asia (us British being fixated on seas, perhaps substitute NE Asia? Even that rationale will fade away once the northern route gets to be heavily navigated... NN Asia, anyone?).

[Ron5]

Boooooring

[bobp]

are we still in colonial times calling it the Far East

I am happy calling it the Far East.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Boooooring

Far West, be quiet in the back of the class!

[Roders96]

What they lack in quality they sure do make up for it in numbers.

What is the west's comparison up to 2025?

I imagine it's not too dissimilar?

[Tempest414]

Just the main players in Pacific have 129 escorts this dose not count the US navies 14 Pacific based LCS

[Roders96]

Interesting of course, does anyone have any sources on how many the west is building per year?

[Lord Jim]

It is certainly a fraction of what the Chinese are producing. Also look at the average age of naval vessels and things get more pronounced, the majority of the Chinese navy are new vessels less than a decade old. This is why the US is shifting towards the Pacific and why European Navies like the UK and France will have to fill the gaps left by the USN in the Atlantic before considering adding any contribution to the former area of operations.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the majority of the Chinese navy are new vessels less than a decade old

A key point as the older ones had the ex-Soviet 100 mm naval gun (was hoisted onto the T-54 and its offspring) as their main weapons system.

have to fill the gaps left by the USN in the Atlantic

+ the Med
+ the Gulf
+ the Gulf of Guinea
(Atalanta already has everyone 'on it')

[Tempest414]

At a quick look between the US , Japan and South Korea they have 17 escorts being built and a another 20 on contract = 37 escorts this again dose not include the 14 US Navy LCS being built or on order as well

[Tempest414]

European Navies like the UK and France will have to fill the gaps left by the USN in the Atlantic

As said up thread NATO Europe has around 130 escorts at this time . As for the UK maybe this is the reason for the extra 5 type 32 they could allow the 5 type 31's to be pushed EoS leaving the RN with 19 Escorts WoS

[TheLoneRanger]

What they lack in quality they sure do make up for it in numbers.

I am not sure they lack quality anymore. It is generally considered that China has surpassed Russia in every military metric except for Jet engines, where Russia still has a lead.

[Roders96]

What is India's position in all this?

How many are they building?

The alliance seems to be at parity at the moment.

[Tempest414]

What is India's position in all this?

How many are they building?

The alliance seems to be at parity at the moment.

they have 23 escorts and 11 being built or on order plus the second carrier in sea trials

[Lord Jim]

With China you also have to factor in that they are concentrating their fleet in a given area, or at least the majority of it. Other nations have to spread their assets globally or at least in multiple areas of operation which slews the numbers more in their favour with the exception of Carrier Groups and SSNs

[ArmChairCivvy]

factor in that they are concentrating their fleet in a given area

Like the German High Fleet that was bottled up?
- where does Jutland lie in the SCS or East China Sea (the Sea of Japan has just been renamed, at least Korea hails that as a victory... so staying neutral here and avoiding a mention)

[Poiuytrewq]

Just like how the T26 started out!

Back to the future!

Also one has been missed above, the Italian PPA has pretty much this exact configuration.

Did you miss this one?

I suspect OMT have been constantly extolling the virtues of Absalon since the IH design was chosen and RN maybe like what they see. The PPA is also a massively capable GP design and I suspect RN is keeping a close eye on that too.

The PPA is aesthetically challenged but highly capable, I like it but I try not to look at it too often (with the light on.)

Finally the T31 has a mission space below the flight deck, how this will be used remains a mystery with the only real access being a hatch in on the helicopter pad that needs a dock and a crane to access. I guess this could be one of the growth areas to be exploited moving to the T32 concept!

From the start I have never been able to understand why this area under the flight deck was wasted. Hopefully RN make some practical use of it now as the budget situation has eased.