Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Poiuytrewq]

The source added that this potential “Type 31 Batch 2” may not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design.

Good. Let's have British designed and built this time.

Something along these lines,

130m to 140m LOA
20m to 21m beam
5000t to 6000t
Acoustically optimised hull
Hybrid propulsion
Mk45
16x Mk41
8x NSM
Phalanx
Artisan
2150 and 2087

Budget: £450m

A Venator enlarged by 25% would be a great place to start.

[Jake1992]

The source added that this potential “Type 31 Batch 2” may not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design.

Good. Let's have British designed and built this time.

Something along these lines,

130m to 140m LOA
20m to 21m beam
5000t to 6000t
Acoustically optimised hull
Hybrid propulsion
Mk45
16x Mk41
8x NSM
Phalanx
Artisan
2150 and 2087

Budget: £450m

A Venator enlarged by 25% would be a great place to start.

Why not a 130m version of the T26 without a mission bay abd only a merlin flight deck and narrow the beam to 19m but keep the hull form.

Iv often said it should be used as the bases to develop a family of vessels from a smaller light frigate to a larger AAW destroyer building on the T26 succes.

[RichardIC]

Good. Let's have British designed and built this time.

Something along these lines,

130m to 140m LOA
20m to 21m beam
5000t to 6000t
Acoustically optimised hull
Hybrid propulsion
Mk45
16x Mk41
8x NSM
Phalanx
Artisan
2150 and 2087

Budget: £450m

A Venator enlarged by 25% would be a great place to start.

If you want to add a lot of expense, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of time-slip, sure go for it.

Otherwise Batch II Type 31. The basic configuration gives A LOT of options.

[shark bait]

Oh my...... a clean sheet design would be so unbelievably dumb..... like Army level dumb!

[Jdam]

Quite the headline from Xav. UK To Restore Royal Navy To Europe’s Most Powerful Maritime Force

Pity we didn't hear about more Type 26's beyond the 8 planned but hopefully the Type 31 Batch 2's will be tailored to ASW.

[Poiuytrewq]

Why not a 130m version of the T26 without a mission bay abd only a merlin flight deck and narrow the beam to 19m but keep the hull form.

Lots of reasons but the main one is likely to be BAE's reluctance to hand the T26's plans to Babcock.

Don't blame them.

[Poiuytrewq]

Otherwise Batch II Type 31. The basic configuration gives A LOT of options.

It does but mainly in AAW.

IMO a GP frigate in the 21st century will need to be much more capable than an Arrowhead 140 with a tail.

[Poiuytrewq]

Oh my...... a clean sheet design would be so unbelievably dumb..... like Army level dumb!

Nope. Dumb is spending £40bn annually on defence and still be unable to cost effectively design a general purpose Frigate.

Do you expect Babcock to keep building Iver Huitfeildt variants forever? It's not plausible.

This is a golden opportunity to build a true successor to the T23's and grow RN into a potent fighting force with a margin for attrition. Supporting BAE to corner the high end escort market whilst simultaneously supporting Babcock to make inroads into the lower end escort market would be a big win for UK PLC as well as the Royal Navy.

[RichardIC]

Nope. Dumb is spending £40bn annually on defence and still be unable to cost effectively design a general purpose Frigate.

We just have designed one.

Do you expect Babcock to keep building Iver Huitfeildt variants forever? It's not plausible.

They haven't even started yet.

This is a golden opportunity to build a true successor to the T23's and grow RN into a potent fighting force with a margin for attrition. Supporting BAE to corner the high end escort market whilst simultaneously supporting Babcock to make inroads into the lower end escort market would be a big win for UK PLC as well as the Royal Navy.

That's the idea.

[Jake1992]

Why not a 130m version of the T26 without a mission bay abd only a merlin flight deck and narrow the beam to 19m but keep the hull form.

Lots of reasons but the main one is likely to be BAE's reluctance to hand the T26's plans to Babcock.

Don't blame them.

Why doesn’t HMG by the design then decide what yards get to build, in the end it was HMG that funded the T26 design and must have some rights over it just like with a “T27”.

To have UK ship building stable we can’t have one company deciding who and where a HMG funded design gets to be built.

[Poiuytrewq]

We just have designed one.

"We" haven't designed anything, unless you mean the removal of systems "We" couldn't afford.

They haven't even started yet.

Exactly and by the time the first Arrowhead 140 design commissions as a T31 the basic design will have been around for over a quarter of a century.

That's the idea.

Glad to hear it. The Arrowhead 140 should be seen as a sticking plaster stop gap to get RN and the MoD out of a bottleneck. IMO it is not the design to form the backbone of the Royal Navy for the first half of the 21st century.

[Roders96]

That's the idea.

Glad to hear it. The Arrowhead 140 should be seen as a sticking plaster stop gap to get RN and the MoD out of a bottleneck. IMO it is not the design to form the backbone of the Royal Navy for the first half of the 21st century.

It's definitely a pretty modern ship by American standards - and they're apparently the biggest of the best!

It will come in numbers we otherwise wouldn't have, and it will be fine. More than fine, actually.

[Poiuytrewq]

To have UK ship building stable we can’t have one company deciding who and where a HMG funded design gets to be built.

That's why the UK now has two escort builders. The big question is, can Babcock build on time and on budget? It's all just talk upto now.

Regardless of what forms the basis of the T32 if I were Babcock I would be working hard to give HMG an alternative for the T4X programme.

That threat alone should keep BAE on their toes which I suspect has always been the point.

[Jake1992]

To have UK ship building stable we can’t have one company deciding who and where a HMG funded design gets to be built.

That's why the UK now has two escort builders. The big question is, can Babcock build on time and on budget? It's all just talk upto now.

Regardless of what forms the basis of the T32 if I were Babcock I would be working hard to give HMG an alternative for the T4X programme.

That threat alone should keep BAE on their toes which I suspect has always been the point.

So here’s a question what would happen if HMG ordered more T26s than BAE could build in the time frame required ?

What I’m getting at is if HMG fund the design of a ship the designing company shouldn’t be able to block HMGs choice of yard to build at.

[RichardIC]

"We" haven't designed anything, unless you mean the removal of systems "We" couldn't afford.

That's just factually incorrect. Type 31 is a British design developed from an original Danish design. You can moan about the equipment fit, and we all have, but it's a large and adaptable platform. And it's British.

Exactly and by the time the first Arrowhead 140 design commissions as a T31 the basic design will have been around for over a quarter of a century.

So what?

Glad to hear it. The Arrowhead 140 should be seen as a sticking plaster stop gap to get RN and the MoD out of a bottleneck. IMO it is not the design to form the backbone of the Royal Navy for the first half of the 21st century.

Why?

The big question is, can Babcock build on time and on budget?

The second part of the question is easy. They have to. That's the contract they signed.

Shark Bait was bang on the nail.

[Dahedd]

Absalon style for the T32 given the T31 is based
on the Iver Huitfeldt (they are siblings after all) Spun as a boost to the RM as well as the RN?

That or the full blown Danish navy spec Air def frigate, maybe they've decided 6 T45 ain't enough.

[Ron5]

The second part of the question is easy. They have to. That's the contract they signed.

That's as bad as him saying build a ship to a T26 spec for 450 million.

However back in the real world ....

[RichardIC]

We're going to have months of this now aren't we? And publication of the review won't clear it up.

[Pseudo]

What will future RN frigate types be called after reaching Type 40?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_syst ... Royal_Navy

It wouldn't be a problem if they'd kept to the system in the first place and designated the Type 31 as the Type 83.

[dmereifield]

We're going to have months of this now aren't we? And publication of the review won't clear it up.

Don't act like you're not going to get caught up in it!

[Poiuytrewq]

So here’s a question what would happen if HMG ordered more T26s than BAE could build in the time frame required ?

They would build the Frigate factory.

BAE will build as many Frigates as fast as HMG wants provided its pays up but then HMG would have to find something for the workforce to do after the 8 hulls are in the water. The problem has been in recent years HMG doesn't want to pay to have the vessels built most efficiently, hopefully things are changing now.

[SD67]

IMHO BAE should be encouraged to build the frigate factory tomorrow as a precondition for the final five T26s, and there's an obvious place for it - Rosyth. Lease part of the facility and build a large undercover frigate factory there. You're working alongside the competition - so what. In Osborne South Australia BAE are working alongside Naval Group in the same multi user facility. You share certain infrastructure and contractors can go back and forth between the two. The Clyde should be shut down and redeveloped for waterfront apartments bcause frankly you're never going to build a 150 metre ship efficiently in a 100 metre hall.

[Poiuytrewq]

It will come in numbers we otherwise wouldn't have, and it will be fine. More than fine, actually.

I agree, for the T31, the A140 is more than most expected at the outset.

The T32 if it turns out to be RN's next generation GP Frigate is a different prospect altogether.

[RichardIC]

I think STRL have probably called it right in their latest editorial. If it's a new project there has to be an element of competition. They can't just hand it to Babcock.

But Babcock will bid with an Arrowhead variant and it will be their's to lose - unless they're right royally screwing up on Type 31.

The other thing that needs to be kept in mind is that we don't know how cobbled together today's announcement has been in usual Borisesque chaos mode.

[rhodes76]

I would be happy with 2 more T26 bringing the total to 10 and a batch 2 Type 31