Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

[Tempest414]

As for type 32 we don't even have type 26 in the water we have not even start building type 31 and they are now talking about type 32 what they should be looking to build is 15 Multi mission sloops capable of operating all the new and future unmanned kit plus taking on all over seas low end patrol work

[donald_of_tokyo]

These are the current funding gaps apart from MHPC

In that sense, it shall start from filling the so-called "£10B black hole" in MOD budget, which will form the 2/3 of the "£16B".

- resume the 5 T26 batch2 (which was in danger of cut)
- resume E-7 to 5 (or more) (which was in danger of cut)
- fill the money shortfall of SSBN (which was one of the cause of forcing many cuts all around)
- resume 7th Astute SSN (which was in danger of cut)
- restart 3x FSSS (which was in danger of cut)
- restart 5-sets of ASM (hope NSM) across the escort fleet (which has been forgotten/set-aside for long)
- MBT and IFV upgrade (which was in danger of cut)

Then, "yet uncommitted" items comes in, which is NOT INCLUDED in the "£10B shortfall", such as
- revive Scott replacement (which was planned to decommission without replacement) was added. (which is actually not large money).
- also regarding the NAO advice, extra F35 (which is still in danger of cut compared to 138, but increase than currently planned 48)

Other candidates will be
- MHC
- Argus replacement
- AESA for Typhoon?
- BMD for T45?
- hulls sonar and a bit more CAMM for T31?
- another 8-sets of NSM to equip all escorts with them
- a few more E-7
- a few more P-8
- Hawk trainer replacements
...
Any "more T31" only come down here, for me.

[NickC]

f all the above sorted to be remembered lasers are an electromagnetic wave and subject to the inverse square law, 1/d2, where power soon drops off the edge of a cliff, at 4 km only delivers one sixtheeth of energy as at one km

Incorrect as you've been told multiple times before.

By the way, would it be too much trouble to write your comments in proper English. Your telegram style is very wearing.

My understanding laser light initially propagates in Hermite-Gaussian wavefronts, lines effectively parallel and collimated of equal intensity relative to the centre depending on how good the laser beam tech is for a short distance, the Rayleigh range, then the laser light propagates as a normal electromagnetic waves, in spherical waves, and the inverse square law kicks in.

The intensity, watts per metre squared per second, passing through any specific finite area set perpendicular to the propagating beam will drop off due to the inverse square once you move out of the Rayleigh range.

The atmosphere can and will cause a laser intensity to diminish as it is propagating, due to the aerosols in the air and will cause the laser light to scatter or be absorbed or otherwise distorted due to turbulence

The laser area just keeps getting bigger and bigger as the beam diverges due to distance reducing its intensity required to deliver the multiples of 10KJ/cm^2 to be effective.

If you find difficult reading my comments would really appreciate if you didn't

[Tempest414]

These are the current funding gaps apart from MHPC

In that sense, it shall start from filling the so-called "£10B black hole" in MOD budget, which will form the 2/3 of the "£16B".

- resume the 5 T26 batch2 (which was in danger of cut)
- resume E-7 to 5 (or more) (which was in danger of cut)
- fill the money shortfall of SSBN (which was one of the cause of forcing many cuts all around)
- resume 7th Astute SSN (which was in danger of cut)
- restart 3x FSSS (which was in danger of cut)
- restart 5-sets of ASM (hope NSM) across the escort fleet (which has been forgotten/set-aside for long)
- MBT and IFV upgrade (which was in danger of cut)

Then, "yet uncommitted" items comes in, which is NOT INCLUDED in the "£10B shortfall", such as
- revive Scott replacement (which was planned to decommission without replacement) was added. (which is actually not large money).
- also regarding the NAO advice, extra F35 (which is still in danger of cut compared to 138, but increase than currently planned 48)

Other candidates will be
- MHC
- Argus replacement
- AESA for Typhoon?
- BMD for T45?
- hulls sonar and a bit more CAMM for T31?
- another 8-sets of NSM to equip all escorts with them
- a few more E-7
- a few more P-8
- Hawk trainer replacements
...
Any "more T31" only come down here, for me.

see we are not that far apart you have just added a few other things that need thinking about

Maybe when it comes to this talk of type 32 what we should be doing is add 1 extra type 26 to make it 9 and one extra type 31 to make it 6 as the RN likes 3's and then commit to type 4X

[donald_of_tokyo]

Tempest-san

Thanks. But, Type-32 is NOT included in the "£16B more for 4 years", because they state 13 frigates with fully committing T31 and T26. From timeline also, T32 build will not start within 4 years. The most expected is just a RFI and designing competition. It is only 4 years, and both Rosyth and Clyde shall better concentrate on T31 and T26 build, respectively.

"6th" T31 and/or "9th" T26 comes in at the next-next 4 years only, as I understand. Not this time.

[bobp]

We may not find out how the extra money will be spent until the IR is completed. One of the things the Defence Secretary said was that having the ability to knock out drones, is vitally important, as is an Anti Aircraft capability. He also mentioned Artillery battery range needs improving.

[Lord Jim]

I cannot see the Navy getting all that much from the additional funding announced besides a few "Band aids" to keep programmes running that were previously in danger of being cut. Given how the Army's initial submission to the IR was rejected as being too "Unambitious" I feel they will be getting the Lion's share to both introduce new capabilities and to speed up its transformation to have a more viable force in place by 2025.

Areas that may benefit in a small way could be those linked to Carrier Strike like the FSS and possibly also initial work on the much vaunted LSS on which the Royal Marines will end up forward deployed, eventually. The Royal Marines may also gain some of the new capabilities that will be in the pipeline for the Army, arbeit in a more portable form like that which will be needed like for the units comprising 16 Brigade.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Frigate factory on the Clyde?

I'm not sure BAE would commit to that even if HMG ordered the remaining 5 hulls in a single batch. There is currently no need for a Frigate factory unless the build schedule was to be quickened by ordering more hulls

Quite.

One should not take grammar too seriously when the transcript is from a back and forth live prgrm, but in this

and Type 26 frigates in Scotland and destroyers

both the frigates AND destroyers seem to be tied to "Scotland".
- I wonder which destroyers we are going to get next

[Caribbean]

The PM's statement to the house was for a total £24b in additional spending over 4 years, which is £16.5b more than their manifesto commitment. Presumably the difference is covered by the 0.5% above inflation figure previously committed to.

According to the BBC presenter, "that's only £7b of new money"

[Poiuytrewq]

The PM just said in response to a question to from Anne Marie Trevelyan that HMG is committed to FIVE T31's and SIX T26's.

Maybe a slip of the tongue or maybe not.

Possibly a sign that the second batch of 3 T26's are to be confirmed as part of the Integrated Review.

[Roders96]

12 extra F-35 bring it to 60 jets on order
3 extra P-8 MPA
Tempest demonstrator
3 x FSS
3 extra type 31 or a 9th Type 26
MHPC ( multi mission sloop) program started
NSM across the escort fleet
Warrior upgrade started
Challenger upgrade started

Very nice but after plugging all the current funding gaps how much of this £16.5bn is actually going to be available for new programmes?

It may be a mistake to assume this money will just plug the gaps.

There's no reason for ministers to change their mind on issues they didn't like in the first place.

There seems to be quite a few new things on the list. There will still be cuts.

[Ron5]

Adding hull-sonar will be also doable,

I understand T31 will have a bow sonar fitted when they are being outfitted.

A sonar is not included in the contract so it would have to be fitted after ship acceptance into the RN.

[Ron5]

16 billion extra across the armed forces My wish list would be for

12 extra F-35 bring it to 60 jets on order
3 extra P-8 MPA
Tempest demonstrator
3 x FSS
3 extra type 31 or a 9th Type 26
MHPC ( multi mission sloop) program started
NSM across the escort fleet
Warrior upgrade started
Challenger upgrade started

this would a good start

Bet you get all of these. In time.

[Ron5]

12 extra F-35 bring it to 60 jets on order
3 extra P-8 MPA
Tempest demonstrator
3 x FSS
3 extra type 31 or a 9th Type 26
MHPC ( multi mission sloop) program started
NSM across the escort fleet
Warrior upgrade started
Challenger upgrade started

Very nice but after plugging all the current funding gaps how much of this £16.5bn is actually going to be available for new programmes?

I would hope Boris/CoE has added strings so most of the money gets spent in the UK on equipment programs.

[Ron5]

As for type 32 we don't even have type 26 in the water we have not even start building type 31 and they are now talking about type 32 what they should be looking to build is 15 Multi mission sloops capable of operating all the new and future unmanned kit plus taking on all over seas low end patrol work

You might be describing the T32

[Ron5]

In that sense, it shall start from filling the so-called "£10B black hole" in MOD budget, which will form the 2/3 of the "£16B".

Isn't the gap over the next 10 years and the extra money over the next 4?

[xav]

For what it is worth, I got this from a "reliable source" which I trust 100%

Type 32 Frigate
While the 8 Type 26 frigates (also known as the City-class) and 5 Type 31 frigates were already planned to be procured, the real surprise in today’s announcement is the mention for the first time of the “Type 32”. Early rumors associated the term with an export variant of Type 31, T4X (Type 45 destroyer replacement), the Littoral Strike Ship project (which appears to be abandoned) or even a typo. Naval News learned from a reliable UK source that this is in fact some sort of “pre program” put in place for budgetary reasons in anticipation of a future potential “Type 31 Batch 2”. The source added that this potential “Type 31 Batch 2” may not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ime-force/

[donald_of_tokyo]

In that sense, it shall start from filling the so-called "£10B black hole" in MOD budget, which will form the 2/3 of the "£16B".

Isn't the gap over the next 10 years and the extra money over the next 4?

Actually, if my memory works, most of the shortfall resides within 4-5 years from now. After that, the budget profile was almost neutral.

# To say the truth, this could be simply because cost of any program in future is "not well known" and just "before start inflating", while programs in action sees inflation in many case... (too sarcastic?).

[Scimitar54]

Or possibly the T31 is the ship to take over the low end patrol work from the River B2s, when they replace the River B1s in Home Waters.
T32 (developed from the T31) is the GP Frigate with enhanced capability (e.g. more CAMM, HMS, TAS, Mk45 Gun).
After having determined the build cost for a “Basic” Ship (T31). The cost of the additional items required less those no longer required to make it a T32 should be far easier to control and budget for (Value for Money).

[Ron5]

f all the above sorted to be remembered lasers are an electromagnetic wave and subject to the inverse square law, 1/d2, where power soon drops off the edge of a cliff, at 4 km only delivers one sixtheeth of energy as at one km

Incorrect as you've been told multiple times before.

By the way, would it be too much trouble to write your comments in proper English. Your telegram style is very wearing.

My understanding laser light initially propagates in Hermite-Gaussian wavefronts, lines effectively parallel and collimated of equal intensity relative to the centre depending on how good the laser beam tech is for a short distance, the Rayleigh range, then the laser light propagates as a normal electromagnetic waves, in spherical waves, and the inverse square law kicks in.

The intensity, watts per metre squared per second, passing through any specific finite area set perpendicular to the propagating beam will drop off due to the inverse square once you move out of the Rayleigh range.

The atmosphere can and will cause a laser intensity to diminish as it is propagating, due to the aerosols in the air and will cause the laser light to scatter or be absorbed or otherwise distorted due to turbulence

The laser area just keeps getting bigger and bigger as the beam diverges due to distance reducing its intensity required to deliver the multiples of 10KJ/cm^2 to be effective.

If you find difficult reading my comments would really appreciate if you didn't

Cutting and pasting googled articles doesn't qualify as "understanding". It qualifies as "a little learning being a dangerous thing".

It is true that laser beams lose their power intensity over distance because they are never perfectly parallel. Some are better than others. However they do not follow an inverse square law. Doubling the distance does not reduce the intensity by 4. A fact easily show by superior lasers retaining their intensity for longer ranges than inferior models. If you were correct, all lasers would behave the same.

Thank you for your improved use of English. Better but not perfect. I wonder if English is your second language.

[Ron5]

T32 build will not start within 4 years

Unless it it to be built elsewhere in which case a fixed price contract could be negotiated and signed within the 4 year window.

Or Babcock's facilities at Rosyth could be expanded to build more T31/32's in parallel.

Giddy times.

[SKB]

What will future RN frigate types be called after reaching Type 40?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_syst ... Royal_Navy

[ArmChairCivvy]

this is in fact some sort of “pre program” put in place for budgetary reasons in anticipation of a future potential “Type 31 Batch 2”. The source added that this potential “Type 31 Batch 2” may not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design.

They want to avoid another 'T31' appearing as a confirmed project... but it had no budget line against it
- was created with some new money and robbing some from T26 a couple of years ahead. i.e. that year's money just jumped from one RN line to another

[Zero Gravitas]

For what it is worth, I got this from a "reliable source" which I trust 100%

Type 32 Frigate
While the 8 Type 26 frigates (also known as the City-class) and 5 Type 31 frigates were already planned to be procured, the real surprise in today’s announcement is the mention for the first time of the “Type 32”. Early rumors associated the term with an export variant of Type 31, T4X (Type 45 destroyer replacement), the Littoral Strike Ship project (which appears to be abandoned) or even a typo. Naval News learned from a reliable UK source that this is in fact some sort of “pre program” put in place for budgetary reasons in anticipation of a future potential “Type 31 Batch 2”. The source added that this potential “Type 31 Batch 2” may not necessarily be based on the Type 31 design.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ime-force/

Fantastic. T32 as a completely new design - the RN will be able to move even further towards its real goal of fielding all Calibers of naval weapons at the same time...

[Ron5]

From the Times ..

Boris Johnson pledges £16bn military spending rise
Armed forces to be transformed in ‘biggest funding boost since Cold War’

Lucy Fisher, Defence Editor
Thursday November 19 2020, 2.45pm GMT, The Times

Boris Johnson has pledged to restore Britain’s status as the “foremost naval power in Europe” and vowed major investment in new warships in a speech on his future vision for the armed forces.

The prime minister has secured a four-year funding deal for the Ministry of Defence, which he said was worth an extra £16.5 billion, that will enable a generational upgrade of the military.

A new space command, a national cyber force, and an artificial intelligence agency will be significant features of the defence transformation programme, Downing Street announced overnight.

Investment will additionally be channelled into combat drones and Tempest, the UK-led programme to develop a sixth-generation fighter jet.

The Royal Navy will also be a significant winner, Mr Johnson revealed today, as he set out plans for the service to take on a bigger role both in domestic waters and across the globe.

He confirmed that Britain will acquire eight Type 26 frigates, highly sophisticated anti-submarine warfare ships, as well as five Type 31 frigates, cheaper all-purpose warships.

New fleet solid support ships to carry food, ammunition and other supplies for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary will be built. The MoD cancelled the initial competition for the ships, decrying the lack of a value-for-money option, but last month said it would relaunch the process in the spring. The ships will be primarily manufactured in Britain.

The various projects confirmed today will be a boon to shipbuilders and are expected to support thousands of jobs. The blueprint is a boost to the Union too, since Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have a significant proportion of shipyards and linked industries.

In his speech to the Commons, conducted via videolink, Mr Johnson stressed that his plan would secure “jobs, prosperity, security and the Union”.
Prime minister pledges to return navy to pre-eminent force in Europe

HMS Queen Elizabeth will be launched on its first carrier strike force operation next year and will deploy to the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, and East Asia, Mr Johnson said. HMS Prince of Wales is up to 18 months behind in its timetable for initial deployment.

In a sign that Britain will look to boost international co-operation, Australian and Canadian personnel and assets are expected to be invited to operate from one of the carriers, sources have said.

Proposals are also being considered for one of the carriers to be permanently forward-deployed, either in the Middle East or even farther eastwards in the southern hemisphere.

A military source said of Mr Johnson’s focus on the Royal Navy: “It’s a paradigm shift in our strategic direction. Boris Johnson has refocused defence to its historic maritime axis, which we haven’t seen since the end of the Second World War.”

The prime minister also confirmed that a national cyber force, combining intelligence agencies and service personnel, will operate against terrorists, organised crime groups and hostile states.

He suggested that in future, a soldier in hostile territory would be “alerted to a distant ambush by sensors on satellites or drones”, with artificial intelligence helping to devise the best response, which could involve an air strike, an assault by a swarm of drones or a cyberattack.

Warships and combat vehicles could be equipped with “inexhaustible” lasers to take on opposing forces, Mr Johnson suggested, with no prospect of them running out of ammunition.

Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, told Times Radio: “For pretty much the last 20 to 30 years we had great ambition but it was never matched by spending. We had feast followed by famine, cuts followed by spending.”

He added: “I’m determined to put some of those things right and show we can be trusted not to repeat mistakes of old.”

However, Sir Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has argued that it is a “spending announcement without a strategy” and questioned how it would be paid for.

“The government has yet again pushed back vital parts of the integrated review and there is no clarity over the government’s strategic priorities,” he said.

Defence analysts have welcomed the settlement as more generous than expected. However, given the parlous state of the ministry’s finances, including a funding black hole of up to £13 billion in its current ten-year equipment plan, the money will not plug all the gaps and cuts are expected.

Ben Zaranko, of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the economic research institute, said the prime minister’s presentation of the deal was “misleading”.

He told the BBC that it was better described as £7 billion of new money for the annual defence budget by 2024-25, rather than £16.5 billion.

Military insiders say that the army will lose out in the overhaul, with biting cuts expected for heavy armour programmes, including tanks, and a drop in personnel numbers that could result in fewer than 70,000 regular soldiers.

Christopher C Miller, acting United States secretary of defence, said that Washibgton “applauds the announcement”, which would ensure that the “UK military continues to be one of the finest fighting forces in the world”.

“Their commitment to increased defence funding should be a message to all free nations that the most capable among us can — and must — do more to counter emerging threats to our shared freedoms and security,” he said.

The deal is set to ensure Britain remains the biggest defence spender in Europe and the second largest in Nato.

Malcolm Chalmers, deputy director-general of the Royal United Services Institute, a defence and security think tank, said of the settlement: “It is a remarkable tribute to the persuasive powers of the Ministry of Defence. It’s particularly striking that the government is prepared to make such a significant investment in defence at a time of great fiscal uncertainty.”

Francis Tusa, editor of Defence Analysis, said that it risked “rewarding bad management”. “The black hole is not a Treasury problem, it’s an MoD problem — and they need to deal with it,” he said. Programmes may need to be cut and personnel numbers fall to fund the modernisation, he added.