Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
seaspear
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by seaspear »

If the Russian radars have some similar capability to Australias Jindalee then it may have some capability in the detection of stealth aircraft as well Jindalee has been reported to have been able to detect the f117 and b-2 bombers
https://portal.engineersaustralia.org.a ... 202016.pdf

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Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

seaspear wrote:If the Russian radars have some similar capability to Australias Jindalee then it may have some capability in the detection of stealth aircraft as well Jindalee has been reported to have been able to detect the f117 and b-2 bombers
https://portal.engineersaustralia.org.a ... 202016.pdf
the ability to see stealth jets is not new and most radars can it is the ability to ident and lock the target which makes it harder

NickC
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by NickC »

Tempest414 wrote:
seaspear wrote:If the Russian radars have some similar capability to Australias Jindalee then it may have some capability in the detection of stealth aircraft as well Jindalee has been reported to have been able to detect the f117 and b-2 bombers
https://portal.engineersaustralia.org.a ... 202016.pdf
the ability to see stealth jets is not new and most radars can it is the ability to ident and lock the target which makes it harder
As said in earlier post the Chinese and Russian long waveband ability radars have the ability to detect stealth sized fighter a/c at range (the large B2 another problem).

The necessary discrimination and ability to target a/c with long range AA missiles requires higher definition radars, eg a S/C/X band radar operating in a form of a concentrated stare mode using longer dwell time/power for the necessary radar gain required centred on that particular ~ one square km cell highlighted by the long waveband radar to target a low RCS stealth a/c is harder as Tempest says. Thou think now possible with the new gen digitally software controlled AESA, GaN TRM and four panel array radars (to be noted the new AESA GaN TRM digital single panel SMART L MM/N has four times the range in staring mode compared to its rotating instrumented range).

An example of full waveband coverage is the Hunter with its multi-panel X, S and L band radars, other navies seem to be happy with new gen X & S band panel array radars, the new US Constellation just S band.

Timmymagic
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Timmymagic »

In case you were wondering where Dragonfire was....


Roders96
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Roders96 »

With the news of a rumoured 5-10% uplift to the defence budget over the next 5 years, where do we think it will go, escort wise, if it materialises?

Jake1992
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Jake1992 »

Roders96 wrote:With the news of a rumoured 5-10% uplift to the defence budget over the next 5 years, where do we think it will go, escort wise, if it materialises?
Where’s that come from Iv not heard or seen anything about an uplift, don’t get me wrong I’d be happy if so but where’d you hear that ?

bobp
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by bobp »

Roders96 wrote:With the news of a rumoured 5-10% uplift to the defence budget over the next 5 years, where do we think it will go, escort wise, if it materialises?
Possibly means no major cuts, and to pay for unfunded programs as well as filling the black hole. Hope fully more F35 and go ahead for tempest demonstrator.

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Tempest414
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

if there is a uplift it will only be to off set the fall in GDP i.e no new money I feel

bobp
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by bobp »

There is money........






See also.......
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6dbc ... a14fc757e0

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RichardIC
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by RichardIC »

Tempest414 wrote:if there is a uplift it will only be to off set the fall in GDP i.e no new money I feel
The main thing isn't how much it's the period of time that it's spread over.

It will hopefully help alleviate constantly lurching from one 12 month spending crisis to the next. That's why things like Fleet Solid Support keep getting moved to the right over-and-over again. MoD are always trying to shift the spend into next year, and then the year after.

Roders96
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Roders96 »

It's probably because they never listen to the amount they're given!

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RichardIC
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by RichardIC »

Roders96 wrote:It's probably because they never listen to the amount they're given!
Believe it or not civil servants aren't willfully thick. It's just impossible to plan long-term spending, with projects spread over decades, when you only know what your budget is going to be for the next 12 months. This point has been made to the Defence Select Committee again and again, and it's something they have asked to have addressed. But that needs the Treasury to play ball.

And when you add in currency fluctuations, the fact that you're often dealing with technology that is still under development, global pandemics and 1,001 other things, you want to know what your £££ is going to look like as far in advance as possible.

It also applies to other departments of course.

One of the things that has made PFIs superficially popular in the past is you have some idea how much you're committing to for the next couple of decades at the beginning, even if you know you're paying over the odds. It's also one of the reasons my last five cars have been leased.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by NickC »

Timmymagic wrote:In case you were wondering where Dragonfire was....

Understand 30 kW? Dragonfire is just a proof of concept funded by Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory on behalf of the MOD.

A lot of hyperbole in this text as Dragonfire described as the "biggest and best" laser, as an example of the hype the USN HELIOS is double the power at 60 kW with room to grow to 150 kW, due to be installed on a Burke destroyer next year.

An old saying in US military research community "lasers are weapons of the future and always will be", understandable as after three decades in R&D and over $12B they have zero practical laser weapons for any missions.

Have seen it said laser needs to show it can deliver minimum energy/heat density of 10KJ/cm^2 on target and if anti-laser coatings/ablative surfaces, atmospheric air turbulence causing rotation / turning during the dwell time that requirement will rise, also will need to show lasers can overcome the adverse atmospheric conditions of rain, fog etc plus debris, dust, smoke etc

If all the above sorted to be remembered lasers are an electromagnetic wave and subject to the inverse square law, 1/d2, where power soon drops off the edge of a cliff, at 4 km only delivers one sixtheeth of energy as at one km, so purely a CIWS unless using megawatt plus. It would seem suggest guns and missiles still best option for CIWS.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

bobp wrote:There is money........






See also.......
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6dbc ... a14fc757e0
I sure hope this is true. As Richards says above, it's probably more important that it's a 4 year settlement than the actual amounts.

In military procurement, 4 years is still way too short, I wonder if the MoD started the bidding at 10 years. Seeing that the reviews are 5 year apart, you'd think they'd settle on 5 but this is the UK where logic tales a back seat.

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Ron5
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

NickC wrote:f all the above sorted to be remembered lasers are an electromagnetic wave and subject to the inverse square law, 1/d2, where power soon drops off the edge of a cliff, at 4 km only delivers one sixtheeth of energy as at one km
Incorrect as you've been told multiple times before.

By the way, would it be too much trouble to write your comments in proper English. Your telegram style is very wearing.

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Ron5
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:In case you were wondering where Dragonfire was....

I can't help but wonder how reliable this is. The rest of his twitter feed makes you doubt.

bobp
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by bobp »

The PM will make an announcement tomorrow after business questions, regarding the Defence Settlement.

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RichardIC
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:In military procurement, 4 years is still way too short, I wonder if the MoD started the bidding at 10 years. Seeing that the reviews are 5 year apart, you'd think they'd settle on 5 but this is the UK where logic tales a back seat.
You're absolutely right, but we're stuck with a five year Parliamentary cycle and we're already 12 months into this one. So four years is as much as could be realistically hoped for.

It should be one of the first priorities for any incoming Government.

bobp
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by bobp »

Absolutely right but when has that been the case lately.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Devil's in the detail but on the face of it this is fantastic news.

Looks like the 3x FSS has got the go ahead but no sign of any LSS.

The T32 announcement is very very interesting also.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... -spending/

Boris Johnson to end 'era of retreat' with £24bn Armed Forces spending pledge
Prime Minister will restore Royal Navy to Europe's most powerful maritime force with largest military investment in 30 years


Boris Johnson said 'the defence of the realm must come first' as he announced a new four-year funding plan
Boris Johnson has promised "an end to the era of retreat" for Britain's Armed Forces with a £24 billion spending increase that marks the biggest financial boost since the Cold War.

The Prime Minister pledged to restore the Royal Navy to its position as Europe's most powerful maritime force and will invest heavily in drones, cyber warfare and space programmes.

Mr Johnson said he had made the decision "in the teeth of the pandemic because the defence of the realm must come first".

Downing Street said 40,000 jobs would be created over the course of the four-year settlement, which gives the Armed Forces an extra £16.5 billion. That is on top of the 2019 manifesto pledge to increase spending by 0.5 per cent above inflation every year.

It means the Prime Minister and Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, have won a lengthy battle with the Treasury to release the funds despite hundreds of billions being spent on the coronavirus response.

With increasing threats from China and Russia, Mr Johnson said Britain must "stand alongside our allies" in a phrase that appeared fashioned for the ears of US president-elect Joe Biden. The extra money will cement Britain's place as Europe's biggest spender on defence and the second biggest in Nato after the US.

Mr Johnson said: "The international situation is more perilous and more intensely competitive than at any time since the Cold War, and Britain must be true to our history and stand alongside our allies. To achieve this we need to upgrade our capabilities across the board.

"This is our chance to end the era of retreat, transform our Armed Forces, bolster our global influence, unite and level up our country, pioneer new technology and defend our people and way of life."

Rishi Sunak, the Chancellor, will confirm in next week's Spending Review that he has ring-fenced money for defence for the next four years, despite the majority of departments being given single-year settlements instead of the three-year deals originally planned.

The extra money amounts to an increase of between 10 and 15 per cent on the current annual budget of £41.5 billion, the biggest rise for more than 30 years.

The Royal Navy is one of the biggest winners in the settlement, which will enable it to place orders for 13 frigates as well as committing to the next generation of frigates, the Type 32, plus a new multi-role research vessel and replacement support ships for its aircraft carriers.


Mr Johnson said it would lead to "a renaissance of shipbuilding across the UK", with thousands of jobs created in Glasgow, Rosyth, Belfast, Appledore and Birkenhead.

The Prime Minister hopes that creating shipbuilding jobs on the Clyde and the Firth will "light up the benefits of the Union in gleaming steel" in a week that saw him criticised for describing devolution as a "disaster".

Although the Navy will have fewer vessels than France – around 80 at any one time – its total tonnage will be greater, defence sources said, as well as being more advanced, making it the most potent in Europe.

The announcement comes ahead of the Integrated Review of the UK's foreign, defence, development and security policy, which is now expected in January.

Mr Johnson will tell the Commons on Thursday that the extra money will mean a "generational modernisation programme" of the Armed Forces.

He will announce investments in defence against cyber warfare, in which enemies hack into computers and communications systems, as well as a new agency dedicated to Artificial Intelligence, the creation of a National Cyber Force and a new Space Command capable of launching its first rocket in 2022.

Extra spending on technology was a policy championed by Mr Johnson’'s senior adviser Dominic Cummings, who resigned last week. Mr Cummings also wanted to reform procurement of traditional weapons, but appears to have lost that fight before his departure from Number 10.

Mr Wallace described the settlement as "excellent news". For the first time, the Government has committed to building a new generation of frigates, classed as Type 32, and Mr Johnson said: "If there is one policy which strengthens the UK in every possible sense, it is building more ships for the Royal Navy.

"Our extra defence spending will restore Britain's position as the foremost naval power in Europe."

Admiral Lord West, the former First Sea Lord, told The Telegraph: "This is really good news – it's what I've been banging on about for a long time. It reflects that there has been a sensible view that we need a maritime strategy, that the sea and oceans are important for us in terms of trade and security and that the wealth of our nation depends on it.

"If you want to conduct operations anywhere in the world, you need maritime forces to do so. This move towards a proper shipbuilding strategy recognises that such a strategy is important to our maritime navy."

Malcolm Chalmers, the deputy director of the Royal United Services Institute, said: "It's a testament to the strength of the case put by the Ministry of Defence and others that the Government has been prepared to invest what they tell us an additional £16 billion over and above the manifesto commitment to defence."

Roders96
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Roders96 »

Encouraging news indeed.

If we were going to make T31 everything it could be - what would it be?

Full 32 MK41 or more? Could T32 be lining up for a cut-throat T4X replacement competition?

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

Great stuff - but what the hell is a Type 32, and how many will we get? Surely the first priority is to properly fit out the T31 (and T26)....or d we think the T32 is going to be a fully kitted out T31? Or maybe it's another bargain basement Patrol Frigate (River batch 3? What was BAE pitching for T31, was it called Cutlass?) To help meet the global commitments with forward basing?

Can't see it being the T4X given timeframes for replacement and the class number (32 as opposed to 46)

Roders96
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Roders96 »

Wouldn't we all like to know!

It may be the up gunned T31, it may be a copy of whatever is pitched to the polish - it might be something else entirely, complete with hull plug and ski-jump for verti-drones.

We don't know.

Wouldn't pay much attention to the numbering of the type though - if the next aaw escort is bigger and better armed, it doesn't matter if it's called a frigate.

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Jensy
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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by Jensy »

dmereifield wrote:Great stuff - but what the hell is a Type 32, and how many will we get? Surely the first priority is to properly fit out the T31 (and T26)....or d we think the T32 is going to be a fully kitted out T31? Or maybe it's another bargain basement Patrol Frigate (River batch 3? What was BAE pitching for T31, was it called Cutlass?) To help meet the global commitments with forward basing?

Can't see it being the T4X given timeframes for replacement and the class number (32 as opposed to 46)
BAE sprayed a fair few different concepts. All Khareef/River class derivatives.

Guesses of what Type 32 might be:

- A typo and misunderstanding. Maybe we'll be getting Type 31 names instead. The Telegraph aint what it used to be...

- Type 31 derivative? Specialised for: ASW/AAW/MHC or even something like a UK PPA?

- LSS in a smaller Absalon or equivalent shape?

- River Batch 3 as above?

- More remotely, perhaps a long term replacement plan for the T26 and T45s with a single class of 'heavy' general purpose frigates? Named as such for politically strategic reasons but approaching cruiser scale in dimensions, if not capability.

I'm alao rather intrigued by the mention of a:

new multi-role research vessel
Is that an HMS Scott replacement? Wonderful news if so.

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Re: Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

Expect the worst is all I'll say. They already made five borderline uparmed corvette/OPVs to call "frigates" before. If they can give 12 CAMM to a River and call it a frigate to just "sound good" in political arguments, they will.

I hope not, I hope I'm wrong. But too often my hopes have proven wrong.

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