Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (ex RN)
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
RFAs have were certainly in the front line in the Falklands especially on the LSTs and took many casualties. I think I didn't explain my thoughts though. In the future I see the RN/RM amphibious capability as being at most company sized but usually smaller. The RM will be used as elite light infantry with certain specialised skill sets, rather like 16 Air mobile will be or are. The Bay/Albion replacements will be to get troops and their equipment into theatre , but not unless absolutely necessarily over the beach. As discussed before civilian chartered Ro-Ros are limited in where and when they can be used. Fine for shipping kit and troops to a friendly country before the balloon goes up but not so directly into a destination where they could get shot at. What form these vessels take could be either traditional or something radical.
- ArmChairCivvy
- Senior Member
- Posts: 16312
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
Was it just a single mention, about the RN/RFA getting a multi-purpose vessel next? Any more heard about the idea?Lord Jim wrote: could be either traditional or something radical.
- considering that Argus and Albion retirements are a decade+ apart
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
RN should focus on Aviation, RFA should focus on logistics.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
I’d agree a full blown carrier or even LPH is beyond reality, but a more restricted ASS is not. RFA Argus goes in 2024 under current plans. A minimum of a similar sized ship is needed, and I’d argue for 2 to boost fill the LPH gap, but also to give the UK increased HADR capability that can easily be paid by the DfID. Whilst building a fourth SSS is possible and ensuring the class can handle @4 Merlins would still say a PCRS/ASS combo is the better option.shark bait wrote:I can follow that argument, unfortunately arguing for additional aviation platforms is going to lead to nowhere.
In the near term there will be no shortage of aviation space, at least until F35 number has been built up in the 30's, when the Albion's will retire anyway.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
- ArmChairCivvy
- Senior Member
- Posts: 16312
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
I am in favour of the general argument, but it is being advanced on partly false grounds. Argus has had very limited role as an ASS since she was stripped of the night flight navigation aids (and helicopter capacity was also drastically reduced by new lift arrangements)... why on earth save in ways like that? Is it guaranteed that casualties will only be received in daylight hours?Repulse wrote: a more restricted ASS is not. RFA Argus goes in 2024 under current plans. A minimum of a similar sized ship is needed
- size being important not only for (multi-use) configurability, but also patient safety & comfort
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
- shark bait
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6427
- Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
Whatever schemes we cook up on here has to exist with a smaller manpower overhead than its predecessor, getting 2 Argus replacements is out of the question.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
I thought night aids were recently added for operating Apaches? I think with Argus operating both Wildcats and Apaches recently the ASS capability is still there, though I agree lessened with the PCRS focus.ArmChairCivvy wrote:I am in favour of the general argument, but it is being advanced on partly false grounds. Argus has had very limited role as an ASS since she was stripped of the night flight navigation aids (and helicopter capacity was also drastically reduced by new lift arrangements)... why on earth save in ways like that? Is it guaranteed that casualties will only be received in daylight hours?Repulse wrote: a more restricted ASS is not. RFA Argus goes in 2024 under current plans. A minimum of a similar sized ship is needed
- size being important not only for (multi-use) configurability, but also patient safety & comfort
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
Agree manpower remains the challenge, but it’s doable and for relatively small amount of cash, especially if part funded from the DfID. One option is to reduce the Aviation facilities on any Fort II replacement.shark bait wrote:Whatever schemes we cook up on here has to exist with a smaller manpower overhead than its predecessor, getting 2 Argus replacements is out of the question.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... 08/121422/
I wonder if they are enticing them with the LPD's as well
I wonder if they are enticing them with the LPD's as well
-
- Member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 20:12
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
So HMS ocean is getting decommissioned. Well it can not actually be knackered as the Brazilian Navy wants to buy it, and i suspect if they do they will keep it in service for at least 10 to 20 years, that is what you call getting your monies worth. So why do we really get rid of it, just so we can enjoy another capability gap?.
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5545
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
HMS Ocean replaced with PoW. No capability gap, but capability leap, in paper.
In long term, RN has replaced four (3 Invincibles and 1 Ocean) 20000t light carriers with two 65000t CVFs. No, I do not like it, (as I am pushing for the "3rd flat top" for long), but, considering the budget status, we might say, "replacing four 20000t CVL with two 65000t CVF" is one of the "not bad" region within the RN fleet shortage, I guess.
Complete loss of LSD, and significant reduction in escort number, are the more troublesome, if they come true. We will see how it goes within a few months, I guess?
In long term, RN has replaced four (3 Invincibles and 1 Ocean) 20000t light carriers with two 65000t CVFs. No, I do not like it, (as I am pushing for the "3rd flat top" for long), but, considering the budget status, we might say, "replacing four 20000t CVL with two 65000t CVF" is one of the "not bad" region within the RN fleet shortage, I guess.
Complete loss of LSD, and significant reduction in escort number, are the more troublesome, if they come true. We will see how it goes within a few months, I guess?
-
- Member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 20:12
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
Oh cool so POW will commission in march this year, lucky i was worried we would have a capability gap!donald_of_tokyo wrote:HMS Ocean replaced with PoW. No capability gap, but capability leap, in paper.
In long term, RN has replaced four (3 Invincibles and 1 Ocean) 20000t light carriers with two 65000t CVFs. No, I do not like it, (as I am pushing for the "3rd flat top" for long), but, considering the budget status, we might say, "replacing four 20000t CVL with two 65000t CVF" is one of the "not bad" region within the RN fleet shortage, I guess.
Complete loss of LSD, and significant reduction in escort number, are the more troublesome, if they come true. We will see how it goes within a few months, I guess?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5545
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
So you mean Ocean gap is only 1year "gap". Yes it is a problem, but can be compensated by Albion and Qnlz combined and anyway it is only 1year.
Also, you say you want to keep Ocean with her crew, with PoW already getting most of her crew several months before her commissioning for training. Not easy, actually.
Also, you say you want to keep Ocean with her crew, with PoW already getting most of her crew several months before her commissioning for training. Not easy, actually.
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
As you say not easy considering the manning issue. And with the latest speculation of cuts I wonder how many would be think about jumping ship after all is done and dusted.donald_of_tokyo wrote:So you mean Ocean gap is only 1year "gap". Yes it is a problem, but can be compensated by Albion and Qnlz combined and anyway it is only 1year.
Also, you say you want to keep Ocean with her crew, with PoW already getting most of her crew several months before her commissioning for training. Not easy, actually.
Might ba able to close some recruitment centre soon as I don't think too many will be in a hurry to join up.
-
- Member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: 01 Jan 2016, 20:12
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
Oh ok so there is actually a capability gap, just what I said in my first post. But never mind only a 1 year gap, nothing could ever go wrong?
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5545
- Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
You are right. That is why I always say "I HATE gaps".ThunderPants wrote:Oh ok so there is actually a capability gap, just what I said in my first post. But never mind only a 1 year gap, nothing could ever go wrong?
On the other hand, the gap we are going to see for LSD will be for 15 years. Reduction in escort number is, may be, forever? SSM gap is at least 10 years and may be 20 years long.
Among them, Ocean-gap is the most easy one. Sad, it is, I agree, but not the worst one.
It is partly because of budget cut, partly because of TOO LARGE CVF requiring huge crew (of course there is also good aspects of being large, scale-merit, so its good and bad), and MOSTLY because of irresponsible optimism HMG/RN had.
- "efficiency saving" as a budget resource ?? Ridiculously stupid idea. Any efficiency savings must be handled as a bonus, not a default.
- Not three 40000t CVF but two 65000t CVF make it difficult to "scale with budget". It was a gamble, as one of the Admirals said (if my memory serves), and HMG/RN simply LOST THAT gamble, paying the pain of making the escort number dangerously low. (similar gamble was there also in Army and RAF, hoping too much, leading to disaster).
We must be practical. Golden something coming too late with reduced number, is much worse than silver or bronze coming early and in number.
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
HMS Ocean arrives in Portsmouth around 07:00 Friday 2nd February 2018. QE will leave Portsmouth at 12:40 according to Portsmouth QHM.
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (ex RN)
07:00 Went to see HMS Ocean for the first time ever! It was pitch black and bloody freezing.
Photos taken from the Mary Rose Museum, next to No.1 Basin.
Went into the dockyard later at noon, after defrosting! HMS Ocean was berthed at Victory Jetty, with QE just in front of her at Princess Royal Jetty. Ocean looked very battered, worn and rusty. They seemed to be emptying her, as I saw some armoured vehicles being driven off the rear ramp.Photos taken from the Mary Rose Museum, next to No.1 Basin.
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
such a shame hms ocean is going its a great asset and a great looking ship if nothing else ,really gutting tbh her and hms liz just look fantastic together and make a great combo tag team
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)
She left Portsmouth at 10:00 this morning and is currently south of the Nab Tower.
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (RN)
It seems HMS Ocean may be renamed as "Minas Gerais" when she enters Brazilian service, reports the Plymouth Herald. It reports that “Minas Gerais” – the name of a former Brazilian battleship, and a state in the south east of the country – is the favourite name choice.
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/u ... me-1046239
-
- Member
- Posts: 69
- Joined: 28 May 2015, 11:28
Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (RN)
HMS Eagle on steriods? A challenging looking ship. I recall taking a "gap" in my interest in the RN back in the 90's and in the meantime they'd built a whole new carrier! Back in the day.....etc