Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (ex RN)

[serge750]

Atleast it said AFTER she is decommissioned...personally if they want her good luck to them, lets concentrate what little resources we have into getting our QEC up and running, obviously I would prefer better amphibious capability than the QEC could provide but funds unfortunatly not there, i'm still hoping that when Albion/bulwark need replacing that we get something like 2 X mistrals....

[Jake1992]

If we're going for 2 LHDs to replace the Albions is sooner going for 2 x summut similar to what the Italians are building
Length - 245m
Beam - 36m
Displacement - 32,000tn +
30 + aircraft
F35B capable
Havnt seen vehicle or troop capacity yet but I'd expect it to be equal to if not better than the mistrals

These would nicely replace the Albions and even ocean

[marktigger]

or even with what the spannish and Australians have built.

I do remember seeing in dim and distant past a BaE concept design for an LHD looked like a modified version of Ocean. But this needs to start concept and planning fairly soon or it'll be like the Fearless/Intrepid saga.

[Jake1992]

I'd happily take the JC1 design but the BEA design would give us less than the mistrals all BEA did was stick a well dock on the ocean design reducing its aviation capacity to be honest it was a very lazy design that will be over 30 years old by the time we need it

[Aethulwulf]

Here's a cunning plan. In the national shipbuilding strategy, MOD publishes its intention to replace Albion & Bulwark with LHDs in ~10 years, but opens up the possibility of modified French, Spanish, Italian designs or a UK bespoke design. Start an assessment that will run for 2-3 years, which will act as nice leverage during Brexit negotiations.

[serge750]

Nice idea..but would the Euro's fall for it & it's small change....Haven't seen that much on the Italian design...must do more research ! bottom of the class for me...

[shark bait]

The Italian one look pretty much a 'European America Class', would be nice if the RN solves its affordability crisis.....

[Jake1992]

A modified Italian one would be spot on for replacing both ocean and Albion, just move both lifts to the same side to line up with the Mars SSS, put one between the islands and make another chinook capable

[Aethulwulf]

The amount of redesign work in moving the lifts should not be underestimated. Any big hole in a ship's side/upper deck has a big effect on structural integrity, stiffness, vibrations, etc (not to mention centre of gravity). Moving a lift from port to starboard, so that both lifts are on the starboard side would likely require quite a fundamental redesign of the underlying ship structure.

[Jake1992]

Would it be more design work or any harder than designing one from scratch ?

[Aethulwulf]

Obviously not. But it might be a lot cheaper and easier to keep the lifts where they are, and just fit a smaller opening for a second RAS station on the starboard side that aligns with the MARS SSS stations.

I suspect that the only real reason to want to move both lifts to starboard would be to do with ease of aircraft movement and F35 sortie generation rate (but that assumes that these ships would have a requirement for 'light' carrier duties).

[Jake1992]

The QEs tides and the Mars SSS have all be designed together to make resurply as easy quick and efficent as possible so why would you not do the same for what will be in all term your second ship.

Well most LHDs now days are F35B capable allowing them to be used as light carriers of ever needed, like the US using one of the wasp class on a carrier roll over Libya

[shark bait]

If building a big F35 capable LHD it really need to be a bespoke job. That is going to be a very expensive platform, and like the carriers it has to priorities operational efficiency in order to be affordable through life.

It would have to be a mini QE, with things like the same RAS masts, same machinery, same highly mechanised weapons handling system ect.... nothing out there comes close at the moment.

All that ain't cheap though, and goes way beyond the capability of Ocean, making it way out of reach unless we have a big up turn before the 2020 SDSR.

[Jake1992]

There are several LHDs out there that are F35B capable the US wasp class, the Spanish JC1 and now the Italians new design, These vessels are not wildly expensive.

I am not saying they should be focused on being a light carrier, what I am saying is that having them F35B capable gives them and in turn the RN greater flexibility i.e as pointed out for use in times when the WE can not be spared just like the US did in Libya.

What it will most likely be is that we will get 2 LHDs to replace both the Albions and Ocean so they will need to be greatly more capable than Ocean. And setting up the resurply system to line up with the tides and Mars SSS is just comman sence it makes the whole task more efficent, the whole idea of the tides and Mars SSS is that they can both resurply the carrier or in this case LHD while at the same time surply one of the escorts each

[shark bait]

They are wildly expensive, the US design costs as much as a QE, the Spanish design is built shit, the Ozzies is expensive and not built for F35, the french design is very cheap, built shit and for a few helos only, and well have to wait and see what the Italians produce. Looking elsewhere the Japanese platforms are big and expensive, the Korean ones look cheap on the surface, but I have little idea what lies beneath there.

It would be nice to have an additional 2 F35 capable platforms, but adding that extra requirement costs a lot.

I'm not yet convinced this future replacement does need to be more capable than Ocean.

[marktigger]

Spanish design is built shit, the Ozzies is expensive and not built for F35,

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/juan-carlos/

http://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/userfil ... 15/LHD.pdf

interesting both these sources state can operate F35 Joint Strike fighter and one of the sources is the builder!

As to we don't need anything more than ocean depends what we are replacing.....If it's Ocean, Albion & Bulwark an LHD would be the better solution.

[Jake1992]

The oz build of the Spanish design came in at around £730m when you covert the cost so to have a F35b capable version could be done comfortably for £1bn

The spanish JC1 is built to similar standards to Ocean witch gas done a good job, mind you I personally think we should build to military standard

As for all we need is a like for like with ocean it is very very unlikely well get that on top of the Albion replacement masons it will have to be rolled in to one witch the only rout is then 2 LHDs. If you don't make them F35b capable due to penny pinching all the RN will be doing is reducing its capabilities and flexiblity in the long run.

Mind you if HMG was to start putting a proper 2% in to the mod budget, witch in 2016 stood at only £36bn around 1.6% ( 2% of GDP equals to £42.5bn ) we could get 2 LHDs on top of 2 new LPDs giving us a big amphibious increas

[donald_of_tokyo]

Ocean replacement is PoW. It is clearly mentioned in SDSR to my understanding (even though it is too "large", too "capable" for Ocean replacement).

Then you are proposing 2 LHDs as a replacement for Albion and Bulwark, while one of them is not operational. Good to think of, but only in optimistic case.

Note that, I agree 2 LHD (F35B capable) will be ideal, worth discussing. It is significant increase in capability. But it is only "one of the (optimistic) solutions".

1 LPH or LHD (not F35B capable) to replace Albion and Bulwark (as SB-san says) is ALSO valid idea, and worth discussing. This does not expect increased resource, and aims at "keeping the capability" (not significantly improving). This is surely "one of the solutions" and this is also my favorite plan since it is "not optimistic".

RN was too optimistic in the past, and fail by sacrificing either number or other assets. The story follows
- T45s : treasury payed money more than initially issued by MOD for 12 hulls, but SeaViper's development cost killed 6 hulls
- QE CVs: RN lost 4 T22B3s and 1 Albion in reserve and 1 Bay to save them going on, to my understanding
- T26s : RN will get only 8 hulls with 8B GBP, which is not far from the initial cost aimed for "16" hulls.

For me, talking about 2 LHDs for Albion and Bulwark replacement is like talking about 12 T45 or 16 T26. Again, I agree it is worth discussing, but more "modest" plans shall also be discussed.

[marktigger]

yes but instead of going for the bespoke design we buy off the shelf

[dmereifield]

yes but instead of going for the bespoke design we buy off the shelf

Which off the shelf a design do you favour? How much modification would be needed, if any(?), to meet RN standards and/or requirements? Presumably some? And once that process starts it can easily snowball and then it becomes less off the shelf and more bespoke...tough to get the balance unless there truly is something off the shelf that fits perfectly (or well enough that we can make do) with our requirements

[Jake1992]

My understanding was the PoW being ocean replacement is only meant to be a temporary solve. So the 2 LHDs will in the end be the full replacement for the 3 ( Ocean,Albion and Bulwark )

I agree that F35B capable might be abit optimistic but with that being the way most other nations are going it has to be looked at or be left behind.

The problem with the amount of involvement the treasury has at the moment is that they will always look to cut what the RN asks for, so they need to go in high and hope that it won't be cut but be prepared that it might well be. If they go in low thinking it won't be cut they most likely will end up with a nasty shock as even that is cut

[ArmChairCivvy]

Ocean replacement is PoW. It is clearly mentioned in SDSR to my understanding (even though it is too "large", too "capable" for Ocean replacement).

Yes, that is what we have been told. It is 9 months ahead of the build schedule and no one seems to have the faintest idea of the modifications that are supposed to be part of taking on the new, or rather, additional role??

[donald_of_tokyo]

My understanding was the PoW being ocean replacement is only meant to be a temporary solve. So the 2 LHDs will in the end be the full replacement for the 3 ( Ocean,Albion and Bulwark )

I also "hope" so. But, at least it is not written so.

I agree that F35B capable might be abit optimistic but with that being the way most other nations are going it has to be looked at or be left behind.

I am not against making it "FFBNW". With large LHD, even a ski-jump can be FFBNW.

The problem with the amount of involvement the treasury has at the moment is that they will always look to cut what the RN asks for, so they need to go in high and hope that it won't be cut but be prepared that it might well be. If they go in low thinking it won't be cut they most likely will end up with a nasty shock as even that is cut

I am not sure if there are any cases treasury has cut anything in purchase program. (I admit I may just lack information). T45, no cut (even increased allocation). Just the cost increased further more. CVF no cut, just the cost increase (in this case, most of it was of political mistake). T26, no cut, again.

Yes, treasury do cut. See RM 43 Cdo. See RFA and RN's man power shortage. See HMS Lancaster. Yes. But, in purchase point of view, MOD is spending a lot and treasury in many cases keep there promise. It is MOD/RN/industry who failed to control the cost. What I am saying is, RN/MOD shall stop pretending they can build "highly capable assets" as cheap as the other navy's "so-so" assets. In general, UK ship building industry's "not-high" skill, combined with very high-level of RN naval standard requirement, makes them "very expensive". See Ocean, see Bay. Low-level assets is properly built even in UK. So, making it simple, requiring less, will be important, I guess.

[SKB]

Ocean is not having a replacement built on a one-for-one basis. Ocean's role will be incorporated into the QE class when they both come into service.

[Jake1992]

The treasury rarely cuts dicrectly from in build projects what the have been doing is robbing petter to pay Paul per say, as we've seen in the likes of oceans planed replacement cut to save the carriers the tides were cut from 6 to 4 the bay's cut from 5 to 4 the sold to 3 ( to save the QEs )
The Mars SSS were a merger and then cut from I believe 5 to 3 vessels
And the T26s have been cut from 13 to 8 with the "planed" cheaper replace my.

From what Iv read and seen I believe the RN needs to aim high in order to get what it needs as a minimum in the end, else if they aim for the minimum they'll end up with less than they need