Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (ex RN)

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WhitestElephant
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by WhitestElephant »

shark bait wrote:
Tiny Toy wrote:
Alternatively they will see a middle-aged man with an expensive fast car and will still smirk at the fact that he lives with his mum because he couldn't afford his own flat with the car repayments.
Funny analogy but they can defiantly be afforded. They have already been paid for, and the operational costs are peanuts compared to the government's funds. Its just down to the politicians to assign the resources in the right places.
Gabriele wrote:The Albions have... meh. Not too terribly much of anything, let's be honest.
I agree, I would be happy to give those the chop to get both carriers fully operational, bay class can pick up some slack.
Indeed in my fantasy fleet they are gone and replaced by the solid support ship (a kind of Karel Doorman), built in Korea, ran by the RAF. Nice and cheap!
Sounds like an interesting fantasy!

Btw, you can delete posts, I noticed you quadruple posted! Click on edit and at the bottom there is a little box you can tick to "Delete this post".
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shark bait
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

haha ohhh yeahh! changes to RFA now.
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Gabriele »

Tiny Toy wrote:
WhitestElephant wrote:You seriously believe the United Kingdom cannot afford aircraft carriers?
Well, it seems that the United Kingdom cannot afford both the aircraft carriers and a full complement of aircraft to fly from them. Or all of the Astutes. Or possibly all of the Type 26s. Or maritime patrol aircraft. Or all the other things that have been or will be cut.

And the problem is the carriers...? Why not the over 50 almost useless Typhoon Tranche 1 without a future, or even better the over 1 billion in countless FRES activities which have put into service zero vehicles...? Or even financing the Iraq war from within the defence budget, and to top it with delaying major programmes to save a few quids in the short term, but paying a hell of a lot more later on...? I suggest these are the real problems defence had in its recent past.

The UK needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up, formulate a plan, and stick to it for more than just a few months.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Tiny Toy
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Tiny Toy »

Gabriele wrote:The UK needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up, formulate a plan, and stick to it for more than just a few months.
I completely agree with you, regarding the Tranche 1s as well (we could have contributed to a joint Rafale programme in exchange for a good deal on a much more mature platform, which is what I said at the time). And yes, it is too late now that the carriers are built, we have to use them now in order not to lose face, despite the fact that simply escorting the one on deployment will tie up a number of frigates and destroyers that could have been usefully and flexibly deployed elsewhere as well as the mindblowing operational costs of F-35B airtime. We're locked into it now. All I'm saying is that there could have been a different future where a whole raft of necessities could have been afforded by not spunking it all on CVF. We need to learn from this costly mistake and not do it again.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Gabriele »

Tiny Toy wrote:
Gabriele wrote:The UK needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up, formulate a plan, and stick to it for more than just a few months.
I completely agree with you, regarding the Tranche 1s as well (we could have contributed to a joint Rafale programme in exchange for a good deal on a much more mature platform, which is what I said at the time). And yes, it is too late now that the carriers are built, we have to use them now in order not to lose face, despite the fact that simply escorting the one on deployment will tie up a number of frigates and destroyers that could have been usefully and flexibly deployed elsewhere as well as the mindblowing operational costs of F-35B airtime. We're locked into it now. All I'm saying is that there could have been a different future where a whole raft of necessities could have been afforded by not spunking it all on CVF. We need to learn from this costly mistake and not do it again.
Under no circumstances i would call the carriers "a mistake". And under no circumstances i can see the UK having kept out of F-35 anyway. And the carriers are far from the most expensive things in the budget.

As for escorts not being tied into escorting capital ships... well. That is actually their real mission: escorting capital ships! It is having them far and wide apart playing OPV that is a waste. Having them in a task group comprising air power and amphibious capabilities, able to influence events both on the waters and deep ashore in a wide area, is what the navy is chiefly about. That is what gives you actual options. A lone frigate gives you presence. And so what? If the gunboat does not fly the flag on behalf of an actual task group that could come to the area to act if things went sour, the gunboat on its own serves little purpose.

The anomaly to correct is deploying the royal navy's task group without organic aviation and without escorts (Cougar 14, i'm looking at you: a rock bottom point in the story of the Royal Navy).
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Tiny Toy
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Tiny Toy »

Gabriele wrote:...the carriers are far from the most expensive things in the budget.
As far as I'm aware they are the fourth most expensive single item in the budget:
  • Typhoon and Typhoon Future Capability Programme (£18 billion) - 40 aircraft
  • Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) (£11.4 billion) - 14 aircraft
  • Astute class submarine (£9.4 billion) - 7 boats
  • Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier (£6.1 billion) - 2 ships
However this does not include the cost of the F-35Bs. The original commitment was to buy 48 of these, the first 14 now ordered cost £2.5 billion so around £178 million each is £8.5 billion, plus the cost of the carriers is £14.6 billion, making the combined CVF expenditure the second most expensive item. Costs for F-35B flight time have been estimated at £20,000 per hour.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Gabriele »

Tiny Toy wrote:
Gabriele wrote:...the carriers are far from the most expensive things in the budget.
As far as I'm aware they are the fourth most expensive single item in the budget:
  • Typhoon and Typhoon Future Capability Programme (£18 billion) - 40 aircraft
  • Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) (£11.4 billion) - 14 aircraft
  • Astute class submarine (£9.4 billion) - 7 boats
  • Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier (£6.1 billion) - 2 ships
However this does not include the cost of the F-35Bs. The original commitment was to buy 48 of these, the first 14 now ordered cost £2.5 billion so around £178 million each is £8.5 billion, plus the cost of the carriers is £14.6 billion, making the combined CVF expenditure the second most expensive item. Costs for F-35B flight time have been estimated at £20,000 per hour.

F-35 would have been procured regardless. Without the ships, it would just have been that much less flexible, as like Typhoon it would have been acquired for land bases only, leaving the gap at sea alive and well.
The ships themselves would have cost a lot less, if artificial delays hadn't been imposed on the building, to save short term quids at the cost of a lot more of them in the longer term.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Pymes75 »

Tiny Toy wrote: However this does not include the cost of the F-35Bs. The original commitment was to buy 48 of these, the first 14 now ordered cost £2.5 billion so around £178 million each is £8.5 billion, plus the cost of the carriers is £14.6 billion, making the combined CVF expenditure the second most expensive item. Costs for F-35B flight time have been estimated at £20,000 per hour.
All 14 of the F-35Bs have been ordered in the LRIP batches. The remaining a/c will most likely be ordered under FRP and will therefore the fly away cost per airframe will be much less than that headline figure.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by SKB »

This is an HMS Ocean thread. . . .

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Wildcat Attack Helicopter Arrives On HMS OceanImage
The Royal Navy's new attack helicopter, the Wildcat, has made its first landing on the commando carrier HMS Ocean.
Entering service last year the aircraft underwent extensive trials before starting operational deployment at sea.

Landing on HMS Ocean during Exercise Joint Warrior in the North Sea one of those involved on bringing the Wildcat onboard, Leading Airman Ryan Lawson, said "The Wildcat has a unique appearance compared to other aircraft that we are used to seeing."

"I personally feel privileged and honoured to say that I was one of the very first people to marshall the next generation of naval aircraft."
Read More: http://forces.tv/40832929

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by marktigger »

be good to see when chf start taking Merlin to sea

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Dave »

Tony Williams wrote:I think that the Spanish Juan Carlos 1 multi-purpose ships (as bought by Australia - Canberra class) are far more versatile and look like being much better value: now if we had half-a-dozen of these instead of the carriers, LPHs and LPDs we could still operate small numbers of F-35s from them if we needed to.
Where would all the manpower come from to crew 6 of those?
Image
It might just be me, (and of course is immaterial to how well it can or can't function) but that is one of the uglier examples of this class of vessel currently afloat...

Even Ocean is better looking

Image

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by marktigger »

haven't the french got a couple of mistrals going spare?

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by RichardIC »

And they'd be great for the RN

Apart from they're trying to agree compensation with Russia for the cancellation of the contract - they're about half a billion euros apart at the moment.

And the things are stuffed full of Russian-supplied equipment. By the time you've stripped that out (because it isn't going to be supported), selected much more expensive replacements, redesigned everything they're meant to interact with, thrown in a mandatory MoD assessment phase or ten, haggled with the French over just about everything, etc.. etc...

... It just ain't going to happen.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

mistrals are great for the royal navy in theory, but as RichardIC correctly points out, not that great in reality.

I would be careful wishing for something that could operate the f35. Whilst it is a great idea and would be a great thing to have, it would make it all to easy for the real carriers to be cut. The accountants would see the LHD doing the same job as the CVF but for half the price, and we know what would happen then.

I don't think ocean needs a replacement, but if there was the money why not another cheap commercial build?
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the SDSR2015 aim to retire Albion, Bulwark, Ocean and Argus to fund two new LHD's from BAE's design here. Would give them something to keep the construction time going in places that aren't the Clyde.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by Tony Williams »

Dave wrote: Where would all the manpower come from to crew 6 of those?
The question is the wrong way round. We should establish what we need in the way of amphibious forces to implement the government's foreign policy, then acquire and man them. If we can't afford that, the government needs to change its foreign policy.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

RetroSicotte wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see the SDSR2015 aim to retire Albion, Bulwark, Ocean and Argus to fund two new LHD's from BAE's design here. Would give them something to keep the construction time going in places that aren't the Clyde.
That would be a great thing to do. I have made that same suggeston before, however not with the BAE design that's new to me. Operationally it shouldn't be difficult running 2 new ships in place of 4 old ones, however it's getting the money to build them that will be the issue.

I would also suggest another option. I would still retire all the ships you mentioned, but I would also retire the forts and replacce a new solid support ship that has very good aviation capabilities and still very capable of replenishment at sea. Something very similar to the Karel Doorman, that has a big flight deck and hanger and loads of space available for stores or a sea base.

Image
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by RichardIC »

I hadn't appreciated what a big beast Karel Doorman was until she was pictured alongside Argus.

Image

But she hasn't got a dock. She's effectively a transport vessel rather than a true amphib.

And while she would be great as a an Argus replacement I suspect she does lots in a mediocre way. Not a patch on the Tides as a tanker; not as capable a transport as the Point RoRos; very impressive aviation facilities, but not to the standard of Ocean; No dock unlike the Albions or even Bays.

Still looks the business though.

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shark bait
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

I do like that picture of it next to argus, really shows it off well.

It is a multitoll vessel so there's always going to be some compromise. However we wouldn't need the tanker capability so that makes way for additional stores.

Aviation capability is less, but with the carriers and 4ish of these we will still have a fantastic capability.
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by SKB »

This is not an RFA thread, this is for HMS Ocean, a helicopter carrier.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by RetroSicotte »

I wouldn't worry too much. The conversation was a natural divergence from the discussion of Ocean's replacement concepts. This is often all interlinked after all. :)

If it keeps going, thats when we'll be happen to nudge it back on course.

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

SKB wrote:This is not an RFA thread, this is for HMS Ocean, a helicopter carrier.
its a suggestion that oceans roll could be picked up by the RFA in the future.
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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by jonas »

shark bait wrote:
SKB wrote:This is not an RFA thread, this is for HMS Ocean, a helicopter carrier.
its a suggestion that oceans roll could be picked up by the RFA in the future.
Even they are now finding it difficult to man (or woman) their ships. ;)

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Re: Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (RN)

Post by S M H »

.The present out of service date of Ocean will see the transfer of the Aviation capability to the carriers. The full capability would be gapped till the replacement of the L.P.Ds. in the mid 20s. When they will be replaced by L.H.Ds. giving the same requirement from two hulls with grater capability. While reducing operating and manning costs.
The crew of Ocean will be needed to man the second carrier in the present defence budget constraints.

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