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Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Pseudo
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Pseudo » 17 Jul 2019, 11:05

shark bait wrote:Why does a patrol vessel need a mach 4 missile?

IMHO, it probably doesn't. I'm just pointing out that your assertion about doubling the cost for a 20% increase in range is a bit reductive because of the increase in threats that it can engage due to the higher speed.

Martlet's probably ideal for an OPV, but I think that you probably need both Martlet and Starstreak on escorts.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 17 Jul 2019, 11:39

What can the Mach 4 Starstreak hit that the Mach 1.5 LLM can't?

You'll find there is no difference because the guidance is the limiting effect, not the speed.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 17 Jul 2019, 11:52

Pseudo wrote:
shark bait wrote:Why does a patrol vessel need a mach 4 missile?

IMHO, it probably doesn't. I'm just pointing out that your assertion about doubling the cost for a 20% increase in range is a bit reductive because of the increase in threats that it can engage due to the higher speed.

Martlet's probably ideal for an OPV, but I think that you probably need both Martlet and Starstreak on escorts.


For me as both missiles can be fired from the same mount I would say something like the Rivers should carry something like 10 LMM and 10 Starstreak in the magazine which can be loaded on the mount as seen fit by the ships commander as the mission profile unfolds. this could also work for the escorts just they might carry 20 of each missile.

This could work very well for T-31 allowing it to carry 24 CAMM and 10 Starstraek

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 17 Jul 2019, 11:53

There is little need to Starstreak on ships. At best it would be a poor man's SeaRAM, and not entirely too effective without massive investment. That close in, you're talking either loitering UAV, or missiles. The latter a Starstreak isn't designed for, and the former is easily Martlet'ed. If it's beyond 6km, you'll be lobbing a CAMM at it anyway.

OPVs for what they're used for simply have no need of it.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 17 Jul 2019, 11:56

shark bait wrote:What can the Mach 4 Starstreak hit that the Mach 1.5 LLM can't?

You'll find there is no difference because the guidance is the limiting effect, not the speed.


Time from launch to target is also a factor if was not why do we have mach 3 missile at all

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 Jul 2019, 14:35

I think Mach 4 StarStreak is a good addition to Mach 1.5 LMM.

Laser beam riding guidance works well only when the engaging time is shorter compared to target's maneuver. For slow (and cheap and thus small) drones, LMM with proxy fuse will be the best solution. But for high-speed (say, Mach 0.5-0.8) drones, StarStreak may work well. Those fast drones is inevitably large (speed is a very power and fuel consuming parameter), so StarStreak's "3-hittile-darts" strategy may work.

However, RN shall start as early as possible with LMM. This capability is really important for RN vessels, for all escorts, CVF, LPD, and River B2s. It does not need to be permanently mounted. But, capable to be armed with LMM within a few minutes is a great addition, in case some alert came about.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Digger22 » 17 Jul 2019, 21:47

So Kent is being prepped to take over from Duncan later this yr, first operational outing for T23 with LMM no doubt, hence her dash Back to Portsmouth.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 18 Jul 2019, 00:04

Digger22 wrote:So Kent is being prepped to take over from Duncan later this yr, first operational outing for T23 with LMM no doubt, hence her dash Back to Portsmouth.


Really? Would be interesting

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 18 Jul 2019, 07:15

Digger22 wrote:So Kent is being prepped to take over from Duncan later this yr, first operational outing for T23 with LMM no doubt, hence her dash Back to Portsmouth.


Did she really dash back she only arrived home 2 days before Argus from the same deployment. also if Kent is to take over from Duncan later this year then the forward basing of Montrose is not working

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 18 Jul 2019, 09:33

IF the tension keeps ratcheting up we are going to need to re establish a Flotilla in the Gulf of at least a T-45 and a T-23 though preferably two of the latter. One vessels is not enough, especially if we and other nations are going to begin to escort merchant ships through the Gulf like happened during the "Tanker War", of the 190s. In addition the MCM force, if still there, will have to be bolstered though a multi national MCM force would be better.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Digger22 » 18 Jul 2019, 10:51

Kent is going to releave Duncan, who in turn is going to allow Montrose to port for Maintenance, so Duncan's presence is going to be a short one, and will not increase RN presence until the arrival of Kent. It will be interesting to see if Montrose will be fitted with LMM while she is in port, giving an idea of what can and cannot be done over there.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Zero Gravitas » 20 Jul 2019, 12:44

The tTimes says that the Stena Impero was surrounded by four vessels yesterday and a helicopter.

HMS Montrose, it is reported, was 10 mins “late”.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby andrew98 » 20 Jul 2019, 18:52

Shame there was no Wildcat with 20x LMM on hand..... Might have dissuaded the Iranians?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby PapaGolf » 20 Jul 2019, 23:21

One thing I’ve not seen discussed is the fact that LMM on wildcat will, presumably, give it an air to air weapon to deal with enemy helicopters.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby andrew98 » 20 Jul 2019, 23:39

If the laser designater can target them? ...
Maybe need some radar/IR guided weapons also?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 22 Jul 2019, 12:59


Image



HMS StAlbans:
This morning HMS StAlbans will sail from HMNBPortsmouth at 08:30 for the last time as a Portsmouth based Ship. We’re proud to have called Portsmouth home for the last 18 years. Soon HMNB Devonport will be our home.

Towed Array ship.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 26 Jul 2019, 10:59


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 27 Jul 2019, 11:32


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby clivestonehouse1 » 27 Jul 2019, 14:30

She'll have to wait quite a while.
There's already 3 in the FSC sheds and 2 in the basin.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 27 Jul 2019, 15:08

clivestonehouse1 wrote:She'll have to wait quite a while.
There's already 3 in the FSC sheds and 2 in the basin.
May be her crew is needed for a LIFEX T23 to come back to the fleet. RN is just lacking crew, not hull.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 28 Jul 2019, 02:20

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
clivestonehouse1 wrote:She'll have to wait quite a while.
There's already 3 in the FSC sheds and 2 in the basin.
May be her crew is needed for a LIFEX T23 to come back to the fleet. RN is just lacking crew, not hull.


or she is just knackered and needs a refit

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 28 Jul 2019, 02:31

Tempest414 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:May be her crew is needed for a LIFEX T23 to come back to the fleet. RN is just lacking crew, not hull.
or she is just knackered and needs a refit
If so, simply yet another T23 or T45 will be reactivated (say, Montrose). No it will not happen. It is clear man-power is the prime limitation for RN now.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby clivestonehouse1 » 28 Jul 2019, 02:51

With at least 6 of the T23's (either in refit or low readiness in Devonport alone) thats a lot of crews spare.
Add to that one Albion class in low readiness also there has to be some capacity sat somewhere waiting for a sea draft.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 28 Jul 2019, 03:00

clivestonehouse1 wrote:With at least 6 of the T23's (either in refit or low readiness in Devonport alone) thats a lot of crews spare.
Add to that one Albion class in low readiness also there has to be some capacity sat somewhere waiting for a sea draft.
I'm afraid you are looking at the issue up-side down.

- In RNZN, when the Frigates are in long refit, or when waiting new ships to come, they fully utilized the existing assets (patrol boats) to up-keep the training. We see no such activity in RN.

- At the same time, QNLZ and PoW is now in full man-power, requiring 800 crew each (excluding air-wing). This is "~700 more" compared to the crew of Illustrious and Ocean added.

- At the same time, RN saw significant man-power cut (2010) and also sow significant shortage even compared to the "needs after cut".

- It is officially stated, 1 escort is in extended readiness and another (or more) is in reduced crew status, because of man-power shortage.

Adding up these 4 information to the fact that so many T23 is in "extended readiness" = although explained as "waiting for refit", it is very clear for me. RN is confronting sever man-power shortage.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 28 Jul 2019, 03:08

I would have to say 6 frigates in or waiting for refit is a ship problem not a manpower problem anyway I am back in the UK next week for 2 weeks and at Wattisham and Marham for one of those weeks and it turns out a mate of mine will be there to who is on the CAMM team now so I will dig up what I can


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