Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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SKB
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »


(Royal Navy) 22 Dec 2018
Merry Christmas from the ship's company of HMS Argyll, who are on a nine month deployment to the Far East.
More: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... -christmas

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Montrose in Devonport, New Zealand. Now Kiwis can take a glance on how the Sea Ceptor is like. They will be operating it around the end of this year (ANZAC frigate Te Kaha in upgrade refit at Canada, to be armed with British weapons; CAMM, ship torpedo defense system (Sea Sentor), and the tube-launched ASM radar decoys).


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Good News :thumbup:

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Is modifying a ship to be decommissioned in 2025, only 6 years from now and 5 years after refit, good idea?

Also I understand manning situation is yet to be solved, which means even if she is refitted and will come back, another ship will just go into the same “extended readiness” status.

If MOD just wants the number of escorts “look like” 19, why don’t we just keep her in extended readiness for yet another 6 years?

Or use Argil and Lasncaster for 1 year more and sell Iron Duke to Brasil or Chilli on 2023? Only 4 years from now.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Is modifying a ship to be decommissioned in 2025, only 6 years from now and 5 years after refit, good idea?
Nobody likes to see vessels tied up in mothballs so it is good news if the manning issues start to ease.

Your point is valid however and that's why I think the pragmatic approach is to sell one of the T23's now. I would then look to use use the money gained to upgrade the remaining 4 GP's to an ASW specification making 12x ASW T23's.

Two could be fitted with reduced CAMM loads and designated as permanent TAPS vessels to save a bit more money.

The aim could then be to replicate this frigate force structure with an equivalent number of ASW T26's over the longer term.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

From Navy Lookout. HMS Argil at South China Sea.


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SKB
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

For me it seems the RN / MOD are carrying on with there piss poor spending habits

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

I think right now we need to have a fixed plan to have 10 T23s and 5 T45s fully manned and at sea for 220 days a year each. With 2 of each attached to the Carrier group and 2 T23s fitted for TAPS leaving 9 free to carry out other deployments.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote:I think right now we need to have a fixed plan to have 10 T23s and 5 T45s fully manned and at sea for 220 days a year each. With 2 of each attached to the Carrier group and 2 T23s fitted for TAPS leaving 9 free to carry out other deployments.
As military is reality, those number shall better be realistic.

Sorry to say, but 220 days a year is totally impossible.

If you look at this
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publ ... 10/177797/
in 2010, the top-10 of the 13 T23 frigates were "at sea" 1450 days in total, or 145 days on average. Or, the 13 T23 frigates were providing 1771 sea going days per year, 136 days/year on average. This number is realistic = requiring this is quite reasonable.

Note this has been HALVED after 2015. Very sharp decline.

Also, CVF will never be "at sea" as long as 220 days. I understand the aim is to keep them "ready" for ~70% = 250 days a year. But it simply means they will be "at sea" significantly less than 250 days. I see no depression here.

In general (looking at RNZN or RCS), a highly active escort has sea-going days of 180 days/year. On average, they will have 140 days/year (39%) typically, if my memory works. So, 140 days a year on average (for 13) and 180 days a year for the 10-selected active T23s will be doable.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

OK if we made it that each of the 10 T23s and 5 T45s should be fully manned and aim for 240 ready days a year I would be happy do we think this is doable

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote:I think right now we need to have a fixed plan to have 10 T23s and 5 T45s fully manned......With 2 of each attached to the Carrier group and 2 T23s fitted for TAPS leaving 9 free to carry out other deployments.
Sounds like a solid plan and clearly still gives RN lots of options for an ARG even if only for part of the year and/or singleton deployments.

As said previously I would let the 13th T23 go and use money gained/saved to upgrade remaining 4 GP's to full ASW spec.

The other option is to go the other way and effectively reduce the GP T23's spec down to a T31 spec. Clearly this would save a considerable amount of money over the next 5 to 10 years. It should also reduce the core crew allocation, potentially enabling another T23 to become active.

I would much prefer the 12x ASW option but given the strength of resolve towards the T31 programme, the T23 Life Extension refits were a perfect time to test the theory. The Mk8 could have been exchanged with a 57/76mm, the Harpoons could have been deleted and the CAMM load reduced to 12. If the core crew requirement could have been reduced to 120-140, the savings would have been meaningful.

Effectively RN would have ended up with 5 downgraded GP Frigates with:

57/76mm
2x 30mm
12 CAMM
Artisan
2050 HMS
Embarked Wildcat/ Merlin.

Given that the T23's are built to full naval standards, have an acoustically quiet hull/propulsion and can exceed 28knots they would still be vastly superior to the vessels that are currently in the running to replace them.

Maybe the flaws in the T31 strategy would have been exposed or, conversely it may have proved the T31 concept valid and enable RN to proceed with the programme with the necessary tweeks in place to ensure success from day one.
...and at sea for 220 days a year each.
Its a big ask, especially for vessels that are as old as the T23's but the life extension refits will certainly help although not all of the engine overhauls are getting done at this stage.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:In general (looking at RNZN or RCS), a highly active escort has sea-going days of 180 days/year. On average, they will have 140 days/year (39%) typically, if my memory works. So, 140 days a year on average (for 13) and 180 days a year for the 10-selected active T23s will be doable.
180 days seems achievable without being overly optimistic. Certainly an improvement over what we have seen in recent years.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote:OK if we made it that each of the 10 T23s and 5 T45s should be fully manned and aim for 240 ready days a year I would be happy do we think this is doable
Yes. It means
- 67% readiness for the 10 T23 and 5 T45 "high readiness vessels".
- 50% readiness for 13 T23, and 55% for 6 T45 (including long maintenance, or in reality, just in extended readiness).
I think this is doable, including the crew issues. Only issue is, why not NOW RN is not achieving this. Very low sea going days, they have now.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

We saw a up turn in days at sea for T45 last year as for T23 I think the RN is running around trying to make it look like they have 13 and not picking the best 10 and manning them properly it also may be a bit of game playing

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote:As said previously I would let the 13th T23 go and use money gained/saved to upgrade remaining 4 GP's to full ASW spec.
Rather simply let 13th T23 go, and do just make T23GP as it is, but I agree this is a good approach. Also,
The other option is to go the other way and effectively reduce the GP T23's spec down to a T31 spec.
This is very interesting point. But, I'm afraid it is too late.

Now, the status if the five T23GPs are;

( (c) =CAMM, (w)=Sea Wolf, (r/c) = refit coming back soon with CAMM, (r)=extended readiness or starting refit)

- (c) HMS Argyll (T23GP1), has already CAMM.
- (r/c) HMS Lancaster (T23GP2) is yet to come back from her refit with CAMM (maybe soon).
- (r) HMS Iron Duke is now just going into refit.
- (w) HMS Monmouth (T23GP4) is actively steaming around with Sea Wolf.
- (c) HMS Montrose (T23GP5), has already CAMM.

So, other than Iron Duke, there is only Monmouth, which is a T23GP without CAMM. Therefore, "simpler T23GP mod" is not going to happen, sadly.

For fun, I review the status, similarly, of the eight T23ASWs;

- (c) HMS Westminster (T23ASW1) has already CAMM.
- (r/c) HMS Northumberland (T23ASW2) is yet to come back from her refit with CAMM (maybe soon).
- (r/c) HMS Richmond (T23ASW3) the same (maybe soon).

- (r) HMS Somerset (T23ASW4) has just gone into reserve on October 2018 (maybe for LIFEX refit).
- (w) HMS Sutherland (T23ASW5) is actively steaming around with Sea Wolf.
- (c) HMS Kent (T23ASW6) has already CAMM (just returned last year).
- (r) HMS Portland (T23ASW7) in extended readiness (with SeaWolf).
- (w) HMS St Albans (T23ASW8) is actively steaming around with Sea Wolf.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Someone has just said that the problem is that the T23 primary gearboxes have past support with no source of replacement. Perhaps we should retire Iron Duke but keep it for spares.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Highlights the availability issue with low Hull numbers when ships begin to need major re fits or life extension. So currently 11 ish deployable warships available to RN. Very sad.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Digger22 wrote:when ships begin to need major re fits or life extension. So currently 11 ish deployable warships available to RN. Very sad.
It is, but is is an own goal and the problem coming has been seen for a very long time.
- time for radical action: accelerate the T-31 prgrm and pull technically deficient T-23s back, for stripping to accelerate also the fitting out of any units that pass through the main build
- I would not be surprised if we arrive at the laughable situation where a TAS need to be retrofitted onto a GP T-23, just if some of those happen to be (despite their age) in a better condition than the ASW ones (that we critically depend on)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Now, the status if the five T23GPs are;
Thanks for taking the time to work this out, I had lost track. Your going to need some more colours, soon some will be running around with new engines. A couple will never get new engines, I guess they're going to be the first to go.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

It makes poor reading I would say that with 3 in refit 1 about to go in and 2 laid up it only gives us 7 maybe 8 tops if 1 of the ship in refit is coming out to make room for Iron Duke looks like type 31 can't come quick enough

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Aethulwulf »

Of course, it could just be that the RN are now pushing the T23 fleet through refit as quickly as they can before they have to meet the heavy demands of providing continuously available escorts for the carriers from ~late 2021 onwards.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Rambo »

Aethulwulf wrote:Of course, it could just be that the RN are now pushing the T23 fleet through refit as quickly as they can before they have to meet the heavy demands of providing continuously available escorts for the carriers from ~late 2021 onwards.
That is fine until they are all shagged and need more refits due to the delay of T26 / T31.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

And we still have T45 major works to look forward to too. More T23 pressure.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Digger22 wrote: And we still have T45 major works to look forward to too. More T23 pressure
Quite right: one carrier, one T45 (as long as the AMPH. READY group tags along)... but as for ASW?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Atmospheric shot of HMS St Albans under a full moon.
DxjhfRXWsAART8e.jpg

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