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Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Aethulwulf
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 29 Oct 2018, 13:01

Repulse wrote:Apologies a small off topic question: how many Frigates would it take to keep two forward based deployments going? Assuming a 3yr forward deployment and 18 months tranversing to and from the U.K. and a refit - I’d see the minimum as 3 ships.
With 6 T31s, it has been estimated 2 could be forwarded based (one in the Gulf and one in South Atlantic), 1 available for FRE duties, and 1 available 50% of the time for Caribbean duties. This assumes major refits occur in the UK around once every 6 years for each ship.

Of course just because a ship is forward based, does not mean it is 100% available during this period. It just means the normal periods of unavailability (maintenance, training) will occur while the ship is in its forward base.

People are confusing 'forward based' as being the same as deployed on a operation. It is not. It alters the ships pattern of working a lot.

Typically a ship would go through a long period of low readiness/refit, followed by a long period of work-up and training, before being deployed operationally for a long period (6 - 9 months).

For forward based ships, they will have many short periods of operations,and many short periods of maintenance and training, all while at their forward base.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 29 Oct 2018, 14:11

Aethulwulf wrote:With 6 T31s, it has been estimated 2 could be forwarded based (one in the Gulf and one in South Atlantic), 1 available for FRE duties, and 1 available 50% of the time for Caribbean duties.


Thanks, so how would play with a T26? I assume it will be harder due to the higher end kit, but maybe by maximising similarities between the RN and Oz version and performing some forward based servicing in Oz Yards, maybe be able to support 2 deployments (Oman/Bahrain and Singapore) with 5 ships?
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 29 Oct 2018, 16:48

Repulse wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:With 6 T31s, it has been estimated 2 could be forwarded based (one in the Gulf and one in South Atlantic), 1 available for FRE duties, and 1 available 50% of the time for Caribbean duties.


Thanks, so how would play with a T26? I assume it will be harder due to the higher end kit, but maybe by maximising similarities between the RN and Oz version and performing some forward based servicing in Oz Yards, maybe be able to support 2 deployments (Oman/Bahrain and Singapore) with 5 ships?
You have missed the point. Forward basing 2 ships is not the same as deploying 2 ships on operations.

It will not play with T26. T26 will be supporting carrier groups and TAPS, and will not be forwarded deployed.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 29 Oct 2018, 17:00

Aethulwulf, understand the difference between Forward Basing and Deployments sloppy wording on my part - I do not believe either really need full time RN presence, but being able to respond to events in a shorter period and having the diplomatic impact of having 1st class assets “in region” will have a big impact.

My view is that both should be forward based T26s, as these would give real value not just flag waving or limited HADR. I agree probably 6 of the current T26 fleet will be tied up on CSG / TAP / FRE duties, but with the addition of another say 3 T26s then we could achieve this.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Aethulwulf » 29 Oct 2018, 17:33

Repulse wrote:Aethulwulf, understand the difference between Forward Basing and Deployments sloppy wording on my part - I do not believe either really need full time RN presence, but being able to respond to events in a shorter period and having the diplomatic impact of having 1st class assets “in region” will have a big impact.

My view is that both should be forward based T26s, as these would give real value not just flag waving or limited HADR. I agree probably 6 of the current T26 fleet will be tied up on CSG / TAP / FRE duties, but with the addition of another say 3 T26s then we could achieve this.
No. Eight of the T26 fleet will be tied up on CSG / TAPS

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 Oct 2018, 18:29

Aethulwulf wrote: T26 will be supporting carrier groups and TAPS, and will not be forwarded deployed.


Whether it is 8 or not (and by when), I would hope that folks around here take the above ' on authority' which is something that none of us have... but building the 'thought train' from there would stop us going in eternal circles.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 29 Oct 2018, 19:21

Aethulwulf wrote:No. Eight of the T26 fleet will be tied up on CSG / TAPS


Looks like we need another 5 then :angel:
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 Oct 2018, 19:33

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Whether it is 8 or not (and by when)

+
Repulse wrote:Looks like we need another 5 then :angel:

:?
Let's see what Phil/ MDP says

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 05 Nov 2018, 22:54

Screenshot_20181105-225255_Drive.jpg


Interesting note at the bottom of the latest equipment plan, it's the first time I've seen a cost associated with installing CAMM.

I assume this is on top of the £500m development fund shared with the other force's.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 05 Nov 2018, 23:08

shark bait wrote:
Screenshot_20181105-225255_Drive.jpg


Interesting note at the bottom of the latest equipment plan, it's the first time I've seen a cost associated with installing CAMM.

I assume this is on top of the £500m development fund shared with the other force's.


I assume that includes buying the missile stock?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 05 Nov 2018, 23:17

The costs for the T23 come in at about £2million per missile (32 per T23 and 13 T23) whereas the costs for the T 26 (48 per T26 and 3 T26 on order) is about £1 million per missile. Obviously there are other costs that comprise these sums beyond the missile stocks, but what would be the reason for the costs of T23 provision being double that of the T26?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Nov 2018, 07:23

dmereifield wrote:what would be the reason for the costs of T23 provision being double that of the T26?


The missiles come in sealed containers so for T26 you only need an initial loadout and the rest comes from recycling them from the reducing T23 fleet?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 06 Nov 2018, 09:21

dmereifield wrote:The costs for the T23 come in at about £2million per missile

I don't think that's a valid calculation. There isn't a permanent fit of one 1 missile to 1 silo, it's a pool of missile that rotate between on a ship, on the shelf, and back at the manufacturer.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 06 Nov 2018, 09:56

shark bait wrote:
dmereifield wrote:The costs for the T23 come in at about £2million per missile

I don't think that's a valid calculation. There isn't a permanent fit of one 1 missile to 1 silo, it's a pool of missile that rotate between on a ship, on the shelf, and back at the manufacturer.


Thanks, I get that. It was a crude calculation and I was really just asking what the discrepancy between purchases for the 2 platforms were.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 06 Nov 2018, 10:00

I assume its because the T26 will draw from the same pool the T23 already uses.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby whitelancer » 06 Nov 2018, 20:46

What is included in the quoted figures? Is it the cost of the VLS, software and electronics? I doubt if the cost of the missiles is included. The discrepancy in cost could simply reflect the need to remove the Seawolf elements on T23 and fit those for Seacepter, rather than install them at build.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 10 Dec 2018, 19:09

Appears engine problems are getting contagious


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 10 Dec 2018, 19:24


(GospodarkaMorska.pl) 3 Dec 2018
(Translated:) HMS Westminster is mooring at the French Quay in the Port of Gdynia. The Royal Navy is visiting Poland in a working visit. With our camera we came on board a frigate equipped with the most modern marine missile system. It's impressive.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 11 Dec 2018, 11:12

MOD contracts specific to MBDA for Sea Ceptor as understand, Army and RAF contracts for FLAADS Land and ASRAAM excluded.

£483M - 30/01/2012 "The MOD has confirmed the development of a new Royal Navy missile defence system which will be able to intercept and destroy enemy missiles travelling at supersonic speeds."
£250M - 10/09/2013 MBDA receives Sea Ceptor production order from RN
£100M - 04/11/2016 MBDA receives Sea Ceptor demonstration and manufacture contract for Type 26
Total £833M, numbers of missiles numbers not revealed.

Shark bait's Sea Ceptor programme cost figures Type 23 £850M plus Type 26 £130M total £980M

£980 - £833M difference of £147M / 18%, presumably ancillary costs may be BAE software costs to modify CMS etc., installation, some firing trials?

PS Type 26 MOD programme costs for 3 ships £4,242M, BAE contract £3,700M, difference £542M / ~15%

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 11 Dec 2018, 14:40


:thumbup:

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 11 Dec 2018, 14:55

NickC wrote:MOD contracts specific to MBDA for Sea Ceptor as understand, Army and RAF contracts for FLAADS Land and ASRAAM excluded.

£483M - 30/01/2012 "The MOD has confirmed the development of a new Royal Navy missile defence system which will be able to intercept and destroy enemy missiles travelling at supersonic speeds."
£250M - 10/09/2013 MBDA receives Sea Ceptor production order from RN
£100M - 04/11/2016 MBDA receives Sea Ceptor demonstration and manufacture contract for Type 26
Total £833M, numbers of missiles numbers not revealed.

Shark bait's Sea Ceptor programme cost figures Type 23 £850M plus Type 26 £130M total £980M

£980 - £833M difference of £147M / 18%, presumably ancillary costs may be BAE software costs to modify CMS etc., installation, some firing trials?

PS Type 26 MOD programme costs for 3 ships £4,242M, BAE contract £3,700M, difference £542M / ~15%


So, if first 250 mil. contract is for MLU of Type 23 frigates and second 100 mil. for first 3 Type 26 frigates, and if each Type 26 carries 48 missiles, that's 3 x 48= 150 missiles? So, 150 missiles divided by 100 millions- that's about 670 000 pounds per missile? Or?

Will all 13 Type 23 frigates be equipped with CAMMs?
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 13 Dec 2018, 14:06

HMS Monmouth arrives home at Devonport on Friday 14th December 2018 after her Westlant 18 deployment with HMS Queen Elizabeth.
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... ng-2318911

Monmouth's Wildcat helicopter, "Blackjack" (ZZ529) of 213 Flight, 815 Naval Air Squadron, had a quick refuel stop at Culdrose, before arriving home at Yeovilton. Blackjack was the first ever Wildcat to land and takeoff from a QE class carrier.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 13 Dec 2018, 21:11


Image
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RAF>FAN » 14 Dec 2018, 08:04

Love the look of the T23

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 14 Dec 2018, 14:46

HMS Monmouth & HMS Westminster return home


HMS Westminster

(Navy Lookout) 14 Dec 2018
HMS Westminster - last Portsmouth ship returning for Christmas leave arrived home today after 8 weeks away on exercise TridentJuncture and Baltic Sea tour


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