Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Rambo]

I agree it looks like the Harpoon ramps are still there on HMS Montrose. If Harpoon was removed i'm sure they would have gone in the refit too.

[GibMariner]

The ramps are still be there, but if it is indeed true that Harpoon is going out of service in 2018 without replacement, support & training will start to dry up and they'll be a rarer sight on ships, perhaps reserved for the select few which will be operating in the highest threat environments. We've already seen two escorts deployed to the Mediterranean with only a half load of Harpoons.

[donald_of_tokyo]

So I clearly made many mistakes.

In summary,
- it is Montrose T23GP-5, not Monmouth T23GP-4.
- Westminster T23ASW-1 already had CAMM
- and Argyll T23GP-1 will also have it "soon".

Then, if the T26-1 build is to start next summer, and will take 5 years, it will commission on 2022. It also means Argyll will decommission on 2022 or 23 after enjoying only 5-6 years of "life with CAMM". Not good idea, I think.

If Argyll is to get CAMM, then I would rather let Lancaster T23GP-2 and Iron Duke T23GP-3 to skip CAMM and decommission on 2022 and 2023 to be replaced with T26-1 and T26-2 (2019 start and 4 years for build). And then, on 2025, let Argyll to be replaced with T26-3. In this case, she can enjoy CAMM life for 8 years, which is not that bad. (Here I assume there will be not enough crew to commission T26 before decommissioning T23, since crew shortage is very significant.)

On the other hand, HMS Montrose is planned to decommission on 2027, which means she enjoys 10-11 years of "life with CAMM". HMS Westminster will enjoy 12 years of "life with CAMM" till 2028. Both are reasonable.

[S M H]

Donald, doesn't look like your theory is correct. HMS Argyll is also in refit at Devonport, receiving Sea Ceptor, and will be the first T23 to go in 2023 if current plans remain unchanged.

Its not as if the this has happened before, The improved type12 has some fitted with Sea Wolf even though they had few years service left. This allowed the system to be mature when fitted to Broadsword. That showed when needed. The ex type 12 launchers trackers and computer were reused on the batch 2 build T22s refurbished .

[GibMariner]

Surely the RN needs all the ASW assets it can get at present, it seems like a logical choice to mostly use the T23s without towed arrays to act as test beds for a new system, rather than depleting further the small pool of 8 vessels which are much more important.

If Sea Ceptor continues to be added to ships at the current rate, Sea Wolf could well be out of service by 2020 (has there been an official OSD published?), better to have Argyll with Sea Ceptor for "only" 5-6 years, rather than ~3 with no SAM whatsoever, in my opinion.

I'd also expect the removal of a duplicate, outdated/inferior system, with all the maintenance, logistics, training (i.e. associated costs) as soon as possible to be a high priority for a navy being forced to look for "savings" wherever possible.

If true, might even be one of the rare occasions where the Treasury has agreed to higher up-front costs in exchange for lower long-term savings.

HMS Lancaster is said to be going into refit late next year, hopefully she will also be receiving Sea Ceptor before being returned to service.

[donald_of_tokyo]

If Sea Ceptor continues to be added to ships at the current rate, Sea Wolf could well be out of service by 2020 (has there been an official OSD published?), better to have Argyll with Sea Ceptor for "only" 5-6 years, rather than ~3 with no SAM whatsoever, in my opinion.

Is it really "cheaper"? If yes, I have no objection. It will all depend on "when" the SeaWolf will all go out of service.

My point for "abandoning" Lancaster's update also include the assumption that 1 T23 will be always laid-up because of lack of crew. This means, even if we decommission Lancaster on, say 2020, without SeaWolf replacement, RN loses no (active) escort. The 1st ship of T26 will start sea-trial from late 2021, which means she needs full-set of crew. This means, RN may even forced to place another T23 (Iron Duke?) into "reserve" around late 2021, to provide that crew.

So my proposal is deeply connected with man-power shortage. If there is plenty of crews, Argyll's decommission shall be 2023 = 1 year after the commissioning of the 1st T26, the latter needs some time to reach some level of training/readiness. But, I cannot foresee this to happen...

When we are going to lose Harpoon, putting many CAMM on ship to decommission very soon, or even just put into reserve, is not appealing for me. And again, getting a few dozens of Harpoon is quite easy, not expensive, if it is just getting ex-used shells. There are many many other navies who are still using Harpoon block 1C for 10 years or so.

[dmereifield]

To be fair, in HMS Montrose's case they might just not have re-loaded the Harpoon canisters. The ramps are still there, and it is not a refit job to lift in the tubes. They could just have yet to do that. Anyway, it is just a matter of time now, for what we have been told.

I hope you (and Rambo) are correct

[dmereifield]

[quote="shark bait"]There was also an image of HMS Westminster that shows off her new silos, reconfirming 32 in the old sea wolf cells, rather than the more ambitious proposals for 48 in a completely redesigned section.


HMS Monmouth & HMS Westminster both fitted with sea ceptor, we'll be ready for some firing soon, a little bit of good news for you dmereifield.

[/

Thanks for the info (still depressed though!)

[GibMariner]

The Sun is claiming that 'multiple' Russian submarines are being hunted off Scotland by HMS Sutherland, a Trafalgar-class submarine and 3 NATO aircraft for the last 48 hours: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2174749/m ... -scotland/

[dmereifield]

The Sun is claiming that 'multiple' Russian submarines are being hunted off Scotland by HMS Sutherland, a Trafalgar-class submarine and 3 NATO aircraft for the last 48 hours: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2174749/m ... -scotland/

Good, maybe the heightened Russian activity over the last few weeks might knock some sense into the powers that be at HMG

[Ron5]

There was also an image of HMS Westminster that shows off her new silos, reconfirming 32 in the old sea wolf cells, rather than the more ambitious proposals for 48 in a completely redesigned section.


HMS Monmouth & HMS Westminster both fitted with sea ceptor, we'll be ready for some firing soon, a little bit of good news for you dmereifield.

I can only count 24.

PS I was under the impression Harpoons were only fitted when the ship is ready to go on operations and that's been the case for years. The canister doubles as storage as well as launch.

[GibMariner]

Babcock wins system integration role for Type 23 PGMU

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded Babcock Marine and Technology a GBP3.6 million (USD4.51 million) contract to provide integration services for the UK Royal Navy's (RN's) Type 23 frigate Power Generation and Machinery Control and Surveillance (MCAS) Update (PGMU) project.

Meanwhile, the MoD has revealed that only 11 of the RN's 13 Type 23 frigates will receive the PGMU embodiment, beginning with HMS Richmond.

http://www.janes.com/article/65470/babc ... pe-23-pgmu

[Gabriele]

12 get new engines, only 11 the new controls for engine and propulsion subsystems, and so along. Bah. Dog's breakfast, much...?

[marktigger]

12 get new engines, only 11 the new controls for engine and propulsion subsystems, and so along. Bah. Dog's breakfast, much...?

could 1 be trialing it already?

[The Other Chris]

HMS Argyll is the vessel missing out completely on PGMU.

She's already undergoing LIFEX Programme work at the moment to bring her through to her out of service in 2023 when the PGMU's will still rolling out with the rest of the fleet, so there's no point in delaying her return to service to receive this work.

As for the one less MCS compared to the plants ordered, it's likely a combination of LIFEX/PGMU/OOS schedule clash and/or the existing control equipment with LIFEX upgrades are deemed sufficient for the next vessel.

[GibMariner]

HMS Portland will be present at 'Exponaval 2016' in Valparaiso, Chile, taking place November 29th-December 2nd, accompanied by RFA Gold Rover.

http://prensa.exponaval.cl/2016/11/03/l ... =hootsuite

Fleet Commander Vice Admiral Ben Key tweets HMS Portland has been involved in a patient transfer from Tristan da Cunha to Montevideo, Uruguay:

[GibMariner]

Bangs for your buck from the Iron Duck

HMS Iron Duke is closing the year with four weeks of intensive training and assessment so the frigate is fit to patrol home waters in 2016.
Since completing a six-month deployment with NATO, the ship has undergone maintenance, upgrades and a substantial change in personnel – all the way up to her CO.

2016 closes as it began for the Duck of Death (so called because of the firepower aboard…): busy.

The year opened with a six-month stint assigned to NATO in the Baltic and northern waters – the first RN vessel attached to Standing Maritime Group 1 in about a decade as Britain reasserts its support for the treaty organisation.

And the dying days of the year finds the Portsmouth-based Type 23 being ‘beasted’ in the South Coast Exercise Areas off Plymouth: four ‘lovely’ weeks of Operational Sea Training in the hands of FOST.

More here: https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/15545

[GibMariner]

HMS Portland visits Chile for Exponaval 2016

Innovation, partnership and technology transfer are the main themes as the UK is showing a strong commitment to the UK/Chilean defence relationship by sending two Royal Navy ships to Exponaval 2016 in Valparaiso, Chile. The Type 23 Frigate HMS Portland is making its first visit to Chile along with Royal Fleet Auxiliary RFA Gold Rover. The Fleet Commander is also attending. This will be an opportune time for both navies to discuss future cooperation and acknowledge the important historic and enduring links between the two Services.

At Exponaval UK companies will be showcasing a range of cutting edge technologies in the defence, security and disaster relief sectors. They are also looking for opportunities for industrial partnerships and joint ventures. The UK is also keen to share its experience in managing large defence programmes. It has also recently managed the security for the Rugby World Cup. In both sectors the UK is happy to share its experiences and lessons learnt. In addition the UK has extensive experience in cyber security and is looking to work with both the Chilean government and companies in the sector.

Vice Admiral Ben Key, Fleet Commander said:

The Royal Navy played a significant part in the establishment of Chilean independence, and our two navies have been closely linked ever since. Chile remains an important strategic partner to the UK and our aim is to deepen and strengthen our defence and security relationship. We welcome every opportunity to discuss challenges and issues faced by both our armed forces and security sectors. As our two navies modernise, I am keen we continue to build on our heritage, sharing of ideas, knowledge and technology, and continue to strengthen our ties.

Alexis Hammer Regional Director for South America in the Department of Trade’s Defence and Security Organisation said:

We are delighted to be back again at Exponaval supporting the UK’s capabilities in the marine, defence and security sector. Our presence demonstrates HMG’s on-going commitment to Chile. We hope that at this exhibition we can identify areas where UK companies can work with their Chilean opposite numbers to mutual benefit. I am very keen to encourage more industrial partnerships in both the defence and security sectors and hope that Exponaval can encourage a climate of business to business engagements.

UK companies exhibiting on the Department of Trade’s Defence and Security Organisation’s stand include: Leafield, SEA, MOD Disposals Agency and Ultra Electronics. Other UK companies exhibiting include BAE Systems, MBDA, Qinetiq, Kelvin Hughes, Lloyds Register and Thales.

https://www.gov.uk/government/world-loc ... naval-2016

[shark bait]

Little stop off on APTs.

RFA Gold Rover is a strange one to send, must be her final duty, perhaps shes going in the bargain bin part of the show.

[bobp]

Work commencing on the Chile Navy T23's upgrade.
http://www.janes.com/article/65840/sea- ... 3-frigates

[ArmChairCivvy]

perhaps shes going in the bargain bin part of the show.

Available from 2017, but can be parked there, to await for the outcome of the commercial negoatiation?

[The Armchair Soldier]

For the second time in less than a fortnight, Royal Navy frigate HMS Sutherland has been monitoring a Russian warship as it sailed through UK waters.

Only days after keeping an eye on the destroyer Vice Admiral Kulakov as she passed through the Channel bound for Russia, Plymouth-based Sutherland sailed again from her home port.

Just hours later the British ship encountered the frigate Yaroslav Mudry at the entrance to the English Channel.

The Mudry is one of two Neustrashimy-class frigates in service with the Russian Navy, and has recently been operating in the Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean before sailing across to the Caribbean to visit Cuba and Trinidad.

Sutherland and her Merlin helicopter from 829 Naval Air Squadron at RNAS Culdrose in Cornwall joined French and Dutch warships in following the Yaroslav Mudry, whose progress through the waters of northern Europe will continue to be monitored by ships from other NATO nations.

[RichardIC]

So the Chilean Navy Type 23s are going to get Sea Ceptor, but not as part of the package proposed by BAE which mirrored the RN upgrades with Artisan etc

http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/15-mariti ... gates.html

[inch]

the Chilean type23 look to be getting a bit better spec than the royal navy with the radar fit etc ,

[shark bait]

Do they? On paper at least I don't see anything that supports that.

The T23 despite its age is being well looked after, and should remain highly capable.