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Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Repulse
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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby Repulse » 16 Apr 2019, 09:54

shark bait, even Snatch Land rovers would have been okay if they’d been used as a light vehicle in low threat environments. What is dangerous in my view is taking money from the T26 budget which will be a key fighty bit of the RN to fund half arsed / compromise frigates.
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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 16 Apr 2019, 10:12

shark bait wrote:The middle zone is dangerous, the Navy do not need a Snatch Land Rover at sea. Do our service personnel justice, give them the equipment to fight and win, or do not send them at all.

The T31 is corner cutting to the extreme, not even the Brazilian could fit their crap ship inside the Brits budget. Either do a proper job and make it a real frigate, or don't bother at all and make it a simple utility platform.
I understand your argument. But I just have a different opinion. That's it.

We do not need to make the whole army made of MBT and IFV. Boxer will be needed, and JLTV(?) will be also needed, in addition to numerous soft-skin vehicles. The point will be, where are UK going to send these assets? French La Fayette class and Floreal class were never attacked. Some USN escorts were attacked in Persian Gulf (SS Stark, USS Samuel B. Roberts, USS Princeton), but the Coast Guard cutters were not. And, these USN escorts was not sunk, not because it was armed heavily, but because their damage control level was high.

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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 20 Apr 2019, 09:53

1: Bay class LSD will be starving for tasks, I think.

Needs to amphibious assets are relatively low in peace time. A guy of German shipbuilder was also stating so in some article.

With 4 Point class, Bay lost a "peace time" job = transferring vehicles of Army/RM. With 2 LSS coming, some other tasks (SF support and HADR) will be lost.

2: Partly related, partly independent, RFA Mounts Bay used as MCM drone's mothership in collaboration with USN is very attractive.

Regardless of future MCM drones size, weight, and numbers of assets included, Bay class can handle any of them. For example, Bay can handle up to 8 ARCSIM drones, which I believe amounts to 4 MCM-team. Even if a more larger drones are added, Bay can handle it.

So I propose to use Bay-class much more for MCM tasks.


MCM is an activity "always busy" even in peace time. If one Bay is actively used in MCM, it will need at least 1.5 hulls to cover the task. By assigning another Bay for amphibious task, another 1.5 hulls will be needed, securing the need for 3 Bays.


3: My fantasy plan for MCM tactics including Bays, will be as follows.

- Currently RN has 13 MCMVs. So, let's assume it has 13 MCM teams.

- Assign 5 of them to a Bay (or 1.5 Bays), 3 active, and 2 in training? In other words, with drone-based MCM teams introduced, RN will be able to disband 5 Hunts/Sandowns, providing the "ship handling" part of their crew to relax the man power issue (I guess 60-100 in total).

- What if the "MCM-Bay" were required for amphibious task? I think a River B2 can carry 1 MCM team. It has a large deck (named "flight deck", not needed within a TF), 16t crane, +50 accommodation, simple CMS with good communication suites. RN can send 3 River B2 to cover the 3 active MCM teams from the MCM-Bay.

- Number of MHC hull will be reduced. If an MHC carries 2 MCM teams, 4 hulls plus 2 more for Echo/Enterprise replacements. By reducing MHC build cost required in ~2030, the money could be used for buying these drones.

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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby Repulse » 21 Apr 2019, 12:38

donald_of_tokyo, I think you are on the right lines, but if we include the LSDs and FLSSs as potential MCM motherships, why not maximise the 2 LPDs also? Appreciate their primary role will be at the core of the ARG with RMs onboard, but why not use the one in reserve also?

If the RN went for another T26, 5 B2+s Sloops (with mission bay) in place of the T31 and kept 10 of the current MCMs till the 2030s (to keep Kipion going and CASD sweeping duties), then it would be a well balanced fleet, giving cash towards the unmanned programmes and with some effort free up the cash to keep the 2nd LPD operational.

Then in the 2030s build 10 additional mothership Sloops to replace the MCMs and B1 Rivers.
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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 13 May 2019, 11:50

Cross posted from New Zealand thread

New HMNZS Manawanui (to commission soon), diving support, marine salvage and hydrographic survey vessel has reached New Zealand.

The "Littoral Warefare Ship" budget was cut, to pay for the significantly increased ANZAC FF LIFEX cost, and this reused-ship idea came. Even though it is a reused ship, I think it is an impressive ship. Not a bad business.

Her predecessor HMNZS Resolution (hydrographic survey vessel) was 2500t displacement, and HMNZS (former) Manawanui (diving support, marine salvage vessel) was 910t displacement. But the new Manawanui is as large as 5700t (ref. http://www.navy.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/rn ... b.pdf).

[EDIT] "The project budget for the purchase, modifications and introduction into service of the dive and hydrographic capability is $103 million." (see https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new ... sel-navy-0 ), which is ~50M GBP including the survey and diving kits (presumably partly transferred from the ships she replaces).

Extremely cheap solution, I think. Good buy. Could be relevant for (part of the) hull part of the MHC program. (USV part of MHC program is the most expensive part, another issue, but hull part can be cheaper as this one).

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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby abc123 » 22 May 2019, 16:34

A question- wouldn't it be smart to just plug in into this Belgian-Dutch programme? As a replacement for current Hunt/Sandown classses...

https://navaltoday.com/2019/05/22/belgi ... y-awarded/
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 28 May 2019, 00:46

Belgian and Dutch MCM vessel, Xav-san’s article with good images. Impressive, and invoked many idea.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... look-like/

Impressions;
- Pretty much designed for purpose. Very easy to understand the reasonings of each orientations.
- I’m afraid the hull is too tight?

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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby shark bait » 29 May 2019, 08:58

I think you are right, it looks very tight. If heading down this route is it preferable to go big fat and simple enabling flexibility for extra features and more deployments?

Also are the RN in danger of being overtaken here? At one point the RN were the users cutting the edge, but developments appear to be slowing while other press on.
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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 29 May 2019, 10:45

shark bait wrote: developments appear to be slowing while other press on.

Watch and learn... and shipbuilding (even w/o boats included) seems to be walking a tightrope between
- investment funds available (vs. pending mass obsolescense)
- and crewing

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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby xav » 09 Jun 2019, 07:49

Thales was demonstration its USV/TSAM combo this week (in Brest) as prat of the UK/FR MMCM program


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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby shark bait » 10 Jun 2019, 08:36

Is that the sonar its pulling?
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Re: Mine countermeasures and Hydrographic capability (MHC) (MHPC)

Postby xav » 10 Jun 2019, 15:48

shark bait wrote:Is that the sonar its pulling?

Yes, the TSAM

The USV launches and recovers the MuMNS too:


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