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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 16:46
by RichardIC
RunningStrong wrote:Jokes aside, I think we should have a military ship with a significantly sized hospital function within it. The DFiD/International Aid budget holders would agree prior to build to pay for use of the ship during non-military missions and perhaps for the duration of hurricane season.


It's a funny thing this. I think as people with an interest in the armed forces, we all know that their main issue isn't a lack of kit, it's a lack of trained personnel.

Exactly the same applies in the NHS. Virtually every trust in the country has a large roster of unfilled vacancies - there's the money there to pay people to take up posts, but they won't apply for the jobs. That's why money is being haemorrhaged away on expensive agency staff who can pick and choose the shifts they work and don't feel the obligation to do many hours of unpaid overtime.

And just like the armed forces there are pinch-points where particular specialisms are on their knees because of low numbers.

There is no point asking for more ships when we aren't able to crew the ones we already have. And there is no point in planning fantasy hospital ships because we can't staff the hospitals we already have.

Carry on playing fantasy fleets.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 17:26
by Tempest414
Having worked for both the MOD and the NHS I say hand on heart that the biggest problem with both by far is that anyone taking a post dose not know if they will have a job in 6 months or year in the hospital where my mum works there have been 3 reviews for her post in 5 years her department has seen staff cuts in all of the reviews and same goes for friend in the MOD so it is hard to recruit when people can't see a future

So in fact anything that is put forward on there is fantasy as HMG could cut Type 26 to 6 hulls it could cut Type 31 all together it could sell a carrier to China for all we know

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 17:40
by ArmChairCivvy
We are once again doing a good job in shooting ourselves in the foot:
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... 51a086.png

But isn't the operative word in the thread header "real"?
- I doubt there are any posts saying we don't need the facilities
- just the way of delivering (ships & manning/ part time or just waiting for "action") needs direction (was the gap, 'just about to' open, from 2023 to the latter half of the '30s?)

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:08
by Poiuytrewq
RichardIC wrote:....there is no point in planning fantasy hospital ships because we can't staff the hospitals we already have.
So we might as well scrap Argus now then?

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:18
by RichardIC
Poiuytrewq wrote:So we might as well scrap Argus now then?


Argus
a) isn't a fantasy... she actually exists
and
b) isn't a conventional hospital ship. When she supported (brilliantly) the ebola crisis not a single patient was treated aboard. She enabled shore based support.
c) There's more she can do besides

So, no.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:23
by Poiuytrewq
RichardIC wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:So we might as well scrap Argus now then?


Argus
a) isn't a fantasy... she actually exists
and
b) isn't a hospital ship. When she supported (brilliantly) the ebola crisis not a single patient was treated onboard
c) There's more she can do besides

So, no.
You have lost me know. We are discussing vessels that are highly likely to replace at least part of Argus's role when it decommissions in 2024.

Mystified by your argument.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:31
by RichardIC
Poiuytrewq wrote:You have lost me know. We are discussing vessels that are highly likely to replace at least part of Argus's role when it decommissions in 2024.


You may be. I'm on-topic.

"Should the Royal Navy have a real hospital ship"

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:40
by Poiuytrewq
RichardIC wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:You have lost me know. We are discussing vessels that are highly likely to replace at least part of Argus's role when it decommissions in 2024.


You may be. I'm on-topic.

"Should the Royal Navy have a real hospital ship"
Great, we've established you don't think RN should have a real hospital ship.

Thanks

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:51
by Poiuytrewq
Tempest414 wrote: Do I think a Enforcer 10000 would a make good starting point yes and this is why. if we take this ship keep the flight deck and hangar reduce the well dock & vehicle deck to hold 2 x LCVPs , 10 land Rovers and 10 field Ambulances and then reconfigure the rest of the ship to hold 400 staff 3 operating theatres a 10 bed ICU , X ray , dentists plus 250 other beds we would have a very good ship able to pull up anywhere and start work on day one no matter what the job peace time or war
Who is going to argue against more Enforcers? Not me.

Picking up Retro's point about the likelihood of a commercially derived design, this is what the Canadians came up with for a similar but not identical role. This is more of a Logistic Support Vessel configuration but Humanitarian Relief is still a core role. The Tides converted in a similar way could work very well.

Project Resolve AOR
MV Asertix


https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... or-vessel/
image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg
The cost of this conversion was in the region of £150m to £175m. Not cheap but much cheaper than new build Enforcers. Worth bearing in mind that shipbuilding in Canada is very very expensive.

MV Asterix is a fair bit smaller than the Tides but the similarities are clear. If Ms Mordaunt really wants this to happen a conversion of the existing Tides could be one of the cheaper options.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 09 Jan 2019, 22:58
by Tempest414
maybe a option for a Wave class

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 10 Jan 2019, 03:08
by donald_of_tokyo

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 10 Jan 2019, 10:01
by Tempest414
donald_of_tokyo wrote:https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/a-uk-hospital-ship/

Great read, as always.


Thanks Donald having read this I still think a Enforcer 10000 hull is the best place to start with 85% of every thing on the list including a Role 11 medical option which could be upgraded to Role 111.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 10 Jan 2019, 15:04
by Lord Jim
donald_of_tokyo wrote:https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/a-uk-hospital-ship/

Great read, as always.

Very interesting and a lot of food for thought, not just about a Hospital ship but also what could replace the RN's and RFA's Amphibious shipping if one thinks outside of the box. I am intrigued by the idea of a platform that is modular but with "Big", modules.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 10 Jan 2019, 18:41
by ArmChairCivvy
And still on that TD piece: how to

" to address the perennial problem of infrequent use v specialised nature of the requirement"?

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 10 Jan 2019, 20:19
by Poiuytrewq

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 10 Jan 2019, 21:17
by RunningStrong
RichardIC wrote:There is no point asking for more ships when we aren't able to crew the ones we already have. And there is no point in planning fantasy hospital ships because we can't staff the hospitals we already have.

Carry on playing fantasy fleets.

And yet we have the Navy personnel to meet major incidents, and we have almost 3000 personnel receiving medals for their service (civilian, NHS and military) for their actions during the Ebola Crisis.

We have the people.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 11 Jan 2019, 08:53
by RichardIC
RunningStrong wrote:And yet we have the Navy personnel to meet major incidents, and we have almost 3000 personnel receiving medals for their service (civilian, NHS and military) for their actions during the Ebola Crisis.

We have the people.


I haven't read this thread sufficiently to know whether we are talking about developing hospital ships as a standing capability or a crisis response vehicle. There's a big difference.

We are brilliant at responding to crises. However in many areas we are now treating crises as business-as-normal and that's not sustainable. In the NHS "winter" has gone from being a season to being a crisis. And now it doesn't stop in Spring.

It's what makes people leave. They just get ground down by it because you have to have confidence a crisis will end at some point.

I know I sound very grumpy about it, but it is what irks me about the fantasy fleet crowd, because it does have an impact on serious debate about defence - they live in a world where the people just "happen".

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 11 Jan 2019, 10:15
by Tempest414
I think we need to be clear around this subject. So for me dose the RN need a stand alone Hospital ship for me No dose the UK need a stand alone hospital ship for me yes. Dose the core crew i.e the sailors who operate the ship need to be RFA for me I would like to see this but at the very leased they be sponsored reserves as they are on the Point class to allow the ship to be used in times of war.

to pick up on the post above I left the NHS because I burnt out

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 11 Jan 2019, 10:18
by RunningStrong
RichardIC wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:And yet we have the Navy personnel to meet major incidents, and we have almost 3000 personnel receiving medals for their service (civilian, NHS and military) for their actions during the Ebola Crisis.

We have the people.


I haven't read this thread sufficiently to know whether we are talking about developing hospital ships as a standing capability or a crisis response vehicle. There's a big difference.

We are brilliant at responding to crises. However in many areas we are now treating crises as business-as-normal and that's not sustainable. In the NHS "winter" has gone from being a season to being a crisis. And now it doesn't stop in Spring.

It's what makes people leave. They just get ground down by it because you have to have confidence a crisis will end at some point.

I know I sound very grumpy about it, but it is what irks me about the fantasy fleet crowd, because it does have an impact on serious debate about defence - they live in a world were the people just "happen".

You don't need to read the entire thread. You quoted MY post where instated very clearly this should be a Navy ship with a reasonable hospital capability that the DFID can use for a price.

You asked about people, I answered.

If your issue is to the wider thread then by all means, but you've quoted what I posted so be careful before casting aspersions about fantasy fleet.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 11 Jan 2019, 10:50
by ArmChairCivvy
RichardIC wrote:It's what makes people leave. They just get ground down by it because you have to have confidence a crisis will end at some point.


I take your point (education is headed the same way), but as for the end points, e.g. the Ebola crisis has not ended... just been contained (like so may times before)
- we (the UK, not restricted to Defence in any way) have a problem in that we want to 'declare victory' and give out the medals (luckily the B'ham Palace gdn is v big and the tea party can accommodate any number :) )
RunningStrong wrote: clearly this should be a Navy ship with a reasonable hospital capability that the DFID can use for a price.

- this is one of the very few clear answers to the "real" in the thread header
- the question is not: "Do we want facilities afloat - therefore can be in the right place - to treat casualties". And if you remove 'casualties' then you can remove 'RN' as well. I don't think we have a DfID thread... and shouldn't either

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 11 Jan 2019, 10:52
by RichardIC
RunningStrong wrote:If your issue is to the wider thread then by all means, but you've quoted what I posted so be careful before casting aspersions about fantasy fleet.


I wasn't casting aspersions about anything you posted. I was responding purely to the post I quoted.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 31 Jan 2019, 12:26
by Poiuytrewq

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 31 Jan 2019, 22:56
by R686
I noticed in the above UKDJ article someone left in the comments a link to a petition for the HS to be built in the UK, but alas only 238 people have signed


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235377

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 01 May 2019, 22:02
by Pseudo
IIRC, during her time at DfID Penny Morduant was a proponent of DfID purchasing and the RFA operating a couple of dedicated hospital ships. I wonder if this becoming reality might be more likely now that she's Defence Secretary.

Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Posted: 02 May 2019, 07:28
by Poiuytrewq
Pseudo wrote:IIRC, during her time at DfID Penny Morduant was a proponent of DfID purchasing and the RFA operating a couple of dedicated hospital ships. I wonder if this becoming reality might be more likely now that she's Defence Secretary.
Could Mr Williamsons Littoral Combat Ships now become Ms Morduants Global HADR ships? Basically the same but with the LSG idea binned and possibly four rather than two vessels procured.

Hopefully the one thing that doesn't change is the willingness to go head to head with the treasury to ensure the funding levels remain high enough to prevent further non strategic cuts.