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Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

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Lord Jim
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Lord Jim » 24 Mar 2020, 23:20

abc123 wrote:Manning?


Core crew would be civilian contractors, which as part of their employment contracts would be obligates to crew the ship during a military deployment. The standing medical staff would again civilian, though ideally medical reservists and it would be additional reservist medical personnel who would bring the numbers up to full capacity when needed.

The ship should have one or two embarked helicopters, though these should be leased and manned by civilian crew. Their role would be casualty evacuation to and from the ship as well as carrying out supply missions.

We are not talking about a military vessels here but a floating hospital able to deploy around the world, but which h would have a wartime role, so in response to the question in the title, No, but the UK should have one.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby abc123 » 25 Mar 2020, 08:55

Lord Jim wrote:
abc123 wrote:Manning?


Core crew would be civilian contractors, which as part of their employment contracts would be obligates to crew the ship during a military deployment. The standing medical staff would again civilian, though ideally medical reservists and it would be additional reservist medical personnel who would bring the numbers up to full capacity when needed.

The ship should have one or two embarked helicopters, though these should be leased and manned by civilian crew. Their role would be casualty evacuation to and from the ship as well as carrying out supply missions.

We are not talking about a military vessels here but a floating hospital able to deploy around the world, but which h would have a wartime role, so in response to the question in the title, No, but the UK should have one.


But what that has to do with the RN? Couldn't the Department for Indternational Development do that on their own? That IS/SHOULD BE their core business.
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 09:28

Lord Jim wrote:The standing medical staff would again civilian, though ideally medical reservists and it would be additional reservist medical personnel who would bring the numbers up to full capacity when needed.


So you'd rob them from the NHS!?

Enjoy the fantasy, meanwhile in the real world....

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Jake1992 » 25 Mar 2020, 09:36

RichardIC wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:The standing medical staff would again civilian, though ideally medical reservists and it would be additional reservist medical personnel who would bring the numbers up to full capacity when needed.


So you'd rob them from the NHS!

Enjoy the fantasy, meanwhile in the real world....


Could it be set up that the staff sit separate from the nhs and advertise the positions to people who are more keen to work in the private sector.
Say a pay and benefit package that sits between nhs and private with the allure of travelling the world ?

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 09:46

Jake1992 wrote:Could it be set up that the staff sit separate from the nhs and advertise the positions to people who are more keen to work in the private sector.


You just don't get this do you? The private sector rob staff from the NHS too.

And at the moment the entire private sector... every single private hospital bed in the country... is contracted to the NHS. And even during normal times the private sector's biggest customer is the NHS.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Tempest414 » 25 Mar 2020, 10:22

The fact is that out side the here and now were all medical staff are all but conscripted to the NHS anyone with a few years under there belt dose not want to work for the NHS as it is piss poorly run and staff are treated as a number with little or no care taken for them so to say the NHS is robbed of staff is not true it just dose not care enough to keep them

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 10:36

Tempest414 wrote:The fact is that out side the here and now were all medical staff are all but conscripted to the NHS anyone with a few years under there belt dose not want to work for the NHS as it is piss poorly run and staff are treated as a number with little or no care taken for them so to say the NHS is robbed of staff is not true it just dose not care enough to keep them


I fully respect that may be your experience, but have many colleagues who would acknowledge the huge challenges but wouldn't go anywhere else.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Jake1992 » 25 Mar 2020, 10:48

RichardIC wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:Could it be set up that the staff sit separate from the nhs and advertise the positions to people who are more keen to work in the private sector.


You just don't get this do you? The private sector rob staff from the NHS too.

And at the moment the entire private sector... every single private hospital bed in the country... is contracted to the NHS. And even during normal times the private sector's biggest customer is the NHS.


For one it was a question not a statement of fact so pull your head in with the reply and have some manners.
But the wider point is the staff in the privet sector are NOT nhs staff, you may portray it as they are robbed from the nhs but those people can chose where they work you can’t claim all medical staff as nhs only. Since they wouldn’t be nhs staff the nhs won’t lose personal to operate said hospital ships, now whether you could attract them is a different matter but I was mearlly asking if it’s a route that could be looked at instead of just moving them from the nhs.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Tempest414 » 25 Mar 2020, 10:55

@ RichardIC

And I do respect you and them for that however the NHS is not for everyone and past the here and now a Hospital ship could be a good way of keeping well train staff in the loop for cases as we find our self today

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 12:52

Jake1992 wrote: pull your head in with the reply and have some manners

The irony!

Jake1992 wrote:the privet sector

Are they hedge funds?

Jake1992 wrote:you may portray it as they are robbed from the nhs but those people can chose where they work you can’t claim all medical staff as nhs only

Who do you think spends years and massive amounts of £££ training them? It takes seven years to train a GP. The private sector won't fork out for that.

It is precisely like the RAF spending millions training pilots who then leave and go to work for Ryanair.

There is very quickly becoming a case for permanently abolishing private sector secondary care (hospitals), and on a short term basis that is exactly what has just been done.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Jake1992 » 25 Mar 2020, 13:39

RichardIC wrote:
Jake1992 wrote: pull your head in with the reply and have some manners

The irony!

Jake1992 wrote:the privet sector

Are they hedge funds?

Jake1992 wrote:you may portray it as they are robbed from the nhs but those people can chose where they work you can’t claim all medical staff as nhs only

Who do you think spends years and massive amounts of £££ training them? It takes seven years to train a GP. The private sector won't fork out for that.

It is precisely like the RAF spending millions training pilots who then leave and go to work for Ryanair.

There is very quickly becoming a case for permanently abolishing private sector secondary care (hospitals), and on a short term basis that is exactly what has just been done.


Unless it get written in to a contract at the start of training that they have to only work for the nhs or have to serve a set number of years then they are free to work where they please. Now don’t get me wrong if it was down to me I’d look to say medical training is free to the X number of place each year but they then have to serve X number of years at the nhs so there is a constant stream.

I am not one for getting rid of private health care at all everyone should have a choice, take away the choice and you put to much power in government hands IMO.
Since we do have a private health sector that means there are none nhs staff that could be attracted to work on said hospital ships if the offer is right.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 14:24

Jake1992 wrote:I am not one for getting rid of private health care at all everyone should have a choice, take away the choice and you put to much power in government hands IMO.


A few things.

It is a fact that private hospitals are less well regulated than NHS hospitals. Ian Paterson proved beyond doubt that clinicians flitting between the two is a recipe for disaster.

Secondly, the NHS provides choice for non-emergency hospital care.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/patient-choice/

When private healthcare goes wrong - which it frequently does - the NHS picks up the pieces.

There are now, effectively, no private hospitals in the UK. It's a temporary measure that will last for six months. I think there is now becoming a very good operational (rather than political) case for making that permanent although it would be complex and expensive and I don't have the headspace to think through the detail.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Caribbean » 25 Mar 2020, 14:30

The reality is that most consultants (and a fair few junior doctors) are part-time only. Once you get to consultant grade you can set up your own private practice (the less exalted can only work privately "under supervision" by a consultant), so they transfer to "maximum part time" (22.5 hours per week, IIRC) for the NHS and split their time between the NHS and their private practice.
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RichardIC
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 14:47

Caribbean wrote:The reality is that most consultants (and a fair few junior doctors) are part-time only. Once you get to consultant grade you can set up your own private practice (the less exalted can only work privately "under supervision" by a consultant), so they transfer to "maximum part time" (22.5 hours per week, IIRC) for the NHS and split their time between the NHS and their private practice.


Yep, and GPs charging outrageous amounts for a few hours of privately provided out-of-hours cover. Their "yacht fund" as it's known around here.

(although technically all GP services are privately provided they can get very, very angry when it's pointed out)

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Lord Jim » 25 Mar 2020, 15:41

Without poring too much petrol on this fire, does that mean that all NHS staff should be removed form the Reserves, reducing the militaries medical capacity by at least 80%?

If you actually read what I said, I said that the RN should not get a Hospital ship but that the UK should have one, paid for by probably DFID. At present all medical personnel are being focused on the emergency we all face and they are all due our utmost respect and gratitude for what they are doing. But many Doctor's, Nurses etc. choose to work in the private sector, and many NHS hospitals also do private work in addition to their NHS tasks, with NHS staff being paid at private sector levels for that work.

I am pretty sure in less stressful times there will be Doctors and Nurses etc. who would welcome the opportunity to work on a ship that provides medical aid to others around the world, and many of these may have also joined the Reserves.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 25 Mar 2020, 15:52

Lord Jim wrote:Without poring too much petrol on this fire, does that mean that all NHS staff should be removed form the Reserves, reducing the militaries medical capacity by at least 80%?


The conventional wisdom is that serving with the reserves builds skills and knowledge, particularly for trauma specialists. And that service personnel need and deserve the right level of clinical care.

In reality I think a lot of trusts viewed specialist staff leaving for a tour of Afghanistan or Iraq with very mixed feelings.

I'd never advocate barring NHS staff from joining the reserves.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby clivestonehouse1 » 25 Mar 2020, 15:59

Has anyone taken into consideration the number of Military Nurses, Medics & Doctors that work at NHS hospitals on a regular basis?

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby shark bait » 18 Jun 2020, 11:09

Spinning two crap ideas together does not make a good idea.
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby shotleylad » 18 Jun 2020, 11:17

What for? if a hospital ship is needed a liner can be fitted out in a couple of days or less. Not problem for the
Falklands War.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 18 Jun 2020, 12:27

shotleylad wrote:What for? if a hospital ship is needed a liner can be fitted out in a couple of days or less. Not problem for the
Falklands War.


As always when this comes up, the ship isn't the issue, it's the people who would be needed to make it work. That always seems to get overlooked.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Tempest414 » 18 Jun 2020, 16:20

Of course the other way of looking at it is staff working in the NHS would after 5 years earn the right to take a 6 -9 months sabbatical from there day job to join the ships where ever they are there by doing something different and learning some new skills before returning to there day jobs with great memories and getting there heads down for the next 5 years this is no different to how the RMC work

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 18 Jun 2020, 17:22

Tempest414 wrote:Of course the other way of looking at it is staff working in the NHS would after 5 years earn the right to take a 6 -9 months sabbatical from there day job to join the ships where ever they are there by doing something different and learning some new skills before returning to there day jobs with great memories and getting there heads down for the next 5 years this is no different to how the RMC work


Sorry, forgot you were the expert on NHS workforce.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Caribbean » 18 Jun 2020, 17:28

......aaaannd what was actually said

The Portsmouth North MP, the former international development secretary, has written to the prime minister asking him to be ‘bold and creative’ as she outline her vision.

She has put forward the concept of ‘highly flexible vessels’ that could be deployed to humanitarian crises, taking the strain from the 'grey hulls’ of Royal Navy warships – while also being used to bring an economic boost for Britain.

Such ships would act as a UK Aid Maritime capability, Ms Mordaunt writes, and be UK-flagged and controlled.

The ‘Britannia 2.0’ concept vessels ‘have been rightly seen as a successor to the Royal Yacht Britannia,’ Ms Mordaunt said in her letter.

Crucially, Ms Mordaunt has suggested private, research, commercial and charity cash could be brought in to fund the vessels, alongside funding from the aid budget.

Doing so could support shipyards that ‘need a steady drumbeat’ of production – potentially saving some from closure, she said.

The call comes as Mr Johnson merges the Department for International Development with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Writing to Mr Johnson, the MP said: ‘I ask that in your reprioritisation of (the overseas aid budget) this and other concepts which have the potential to lever in further funds, create jobs, retain capabilities, and deliver on our ambitions for Global Britain are made a reality.

‘A good next step would be to refit an existing vessel to test the concept.

‘Now is the time to be bold and creative. To think about what we actually need and how we can deliver on it with a reduced budget.

‘I would be delighted if you would ask Ministers to take this forward and, although such vessels should always be deployed if Portsmouth were to be their base port!’

Ms Mordaunt, now paymaster general in Mr Johnson’s government, said the ships could be part-funded by the overseas aid budget, together with private, research, commercial and charitable funds.

Conceived as ‘a highly flexible facility’, they could be deployed as a university hospital, used by the Royal Navy ‘in times of strain’, or Royal Fleet Auxiliary, Border Force – or by the Foreign Office to repatriate British nationals.

Making the case for her plan, Ms Mordaunt said: ‘We need a steady drumbeat in our remaining ship halls to make production viable and to keep industry investing in skills and innovation.

‘It is a sovereign capability we cannot lose.

‘We need a greater number of sea-time opportunities for the next generation of mariners to properly train and qualify, and we need more platforms so that we are not taking grey hulls off vital tasking to provide ships for humanitarian or diplomatic missions.’

Ms Mordaunt said that scoping work at Dfid in 2018 revealed the aid budget could be used to fund the craft, with other government departments and agencies indicating they would use it.


So not just a hospital ship and definitely not a new Royal Yacht! I think she's actually meaning that these new vessels could be as important for the UK's image abroad as Brittania was in her time. Interesting, whether it happens, of course, is another matter
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RichardIC
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 18 Jun 2020, 17:55

shark bait wrote:Spinning two crap ideas together does not make a good idea.


Caribbean wrote:So not just a hospital ship and definitely not a new Royal Yacht! I think she's actually meaning that these new vessels could be as important for the UK's image abroad as Brittania was in her time. Interesting, whether it happens, of course, is another matter


She's not spinning two crap ideas, she's aiming for double figures at minimum.


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