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Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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RichardIC
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 04 Mar 2020, 14:54

donald_of_tokyo wrote:But, I might be wrong here on considering how the "hospital ships" are to be operated.


Tempest414 wrote:As for the NHS or the 400 Trusts that make up the NHS it is to top heavy and piss poorly managed


Tempest414 wrote:As for the NHS or the 400 Trusts that make up the NHS it is to top heavy and piss poorly managed


The reason the NHS is so top heavy is because it's so colossally regulated and monitored (that's an oversimplification obvs).

But if the RN operated a hospital ship would those same standards of regulation and monitoring apply? You'd think they'd have to or people benefiting from treatment would be getting a second rate or less safe service.

And what about aftercare? Would people treated in a UK hospital ship be discharged with a package of home care if they needed it?

Would they get follow-on appointments at a month or six months post-operation? You may be able to do it by Skype in some cases.

What if something went wrong postoperatively and emergency remdial surgery was required after the RN hospital ship had left. Would the patient be flown to the UK for that treatment? Or would they just be allowed to die?

These are all questions that actually need answering before you even think about a UK hospital ship.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Jake1992 » 04 Mar 2020, 15:30

RichardIC wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:But, I might be wrong here on considering how the "hospital ships" are to be operated.


Tempest414 wrote:As for the NHS or the 400 Trusts that make up the NHS it is to top heavy and piss poorly managed


Tempest414 wrote:As for the NHS or the 400 Trusts that make up the NHS it is to top heavy and piss poorly managed


The reason the NHS is so top heavy is because it's so colossally regulated and monitored (that's an oversimplification obvs).

But if the RN operated a hospital ship would those same standards of regulation and monitoring apply? You'd think they'd have to or people benefiting from treatment would be getting a second rate or less safe service.

And what about aftercare? Would people treated in a UK hospital ship be discharged with a package of home care if they needed it?

Would they get follow-on appointments at a month or six months post-operation? You may be able to do it by Skype in some cases.

What if something went wrong postoperatively and emergency remdial surgery was required after the RN hospital ship had left. Would the patient be flown to the UK for that treatment? Or would they just be allowed to die?

These are all questions that actually need answering before you even think about a UK hospital ship.


This is why you look at how other nations with hospital ships operate theirs when treating non nationals.
When it comes to treating our own or allied military personal I think it’d be safe to assume it’ll operate just how the role 3 on Argus does now. Those UK national military personal would get treated just how they do after any other treatment in any other military facility and allied personals after care taken up by there own forces.

I can’t see it be used as a long term treatment centre for the rest of the world but more in terms of on site treatment and medication there and then in places that it can’t be gotten or in disaster areas. At the end of the day if start saying yes you’ll be flown back to the UK for after care then you might as well turn the NHS in to the International Health Service.

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RichardIC
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 04 Mar 2020, 17:15

Jake1992 wrote:At the end of the day if start saying yes you’ll be flown back to the UK for after care then you might as well turn the NHS in to the International Health Service.


You're beginning to get it. But you still need to come up with a proper answer, and not just say "well China does it so we can too."

Do you know who would really love a UK hospital ship? Leigh Day.

It's an absolute clinical, ethical and legal minefield.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Tempest414 » 04 Mar 2020, 17:41

RichardIC wrote:The reason the NHS is so top heavy is because it's so colossally regulated and monitored (that's an oversimplification obvs).


Dose not change the fact that the NHS is too top heavy and piss poorly run

As for the RN it needs a PCRS and not a hospital ship

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby cky7 » 04 Mar 2020, 18:15

Wouldn't go anywhere near the idea in the essence that i interpreted it in the article i read in Times. DFID buy the hospital ship (just buying a ship of this type not a particularly massive investment for such a cash flush dept) then expect it to be crewed by already critically undermanned navy. Even if they cover wage, operating, pension and other costs its still another kick for the navy. I know everyone says getting envious of the DFID budget is a cliche and a waste of time. Trouble is the in law commitment to a massively excessive budget was enshrined at the same time as the first brutal cuts to the forces by the current govt (or their predecessors). So in my mind the two will forever be connected. To be honest that one law and the amount we give away in aid to the turd world is the reason i go out of my way to avoid paying tax in every way i can, even when its risky to me. It sickens me that our forces have been stripped bare whilst the govt is giving away billions of other peoples money so they can look like great 'modern britain' humanitarians. Sorry but IMO charity should be a personal choice and i am utterly against giving money to developing nations. Ive seen starving kids and horrific violence in these places since i was a kid and despite all the effort the problems keep recurring. The only answer to these nations problems is for them to learn to live within their means and control population so such horrors do not continue to happen. They can only grow matched to their resources, Every successful nation on earth had to learn this the hard way without generous first world benefactors. We do them no favours doing this when the best examples of successfully ran nations are when the work is done organically in that country. I will not have my money thrown away on these vanity projects to just enable further generations of these nations to continue down the same path. I do not see any real tangible evidence 'soft power' actually works. Hard buys you ten times the global influence of soft power. Need examples look at nations with powerful forces that are doing nothing and compare them with those with drastically weakened ones playing super samaritan and see who has most pull. The DFID is an utter waste if time and it makes me sick we are forced to contribute to it, bloody liberal police state. I give where and when i choose and what i believe in. A governments first responsibility is to the protection of its people and should be providing first class jobs to those who make the choice to defend us. They're utterly failing to do this whilst enforcing this liberal vanity project is an utter insult and i will never vote conservative again for it, nor any other party backing it.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby abc123 » 04 Mar 2020, 19:21

Soon the question will be "should the RN have a real frigates"? Hospital ship will be last of the RN problems... :think:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Repulse » 04 Mar 2020, 20:25

abc123 wrote:Soon the question will be "should the RN have a real frigates"?


I think that’s already been answered with the T31e.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Tempest414 » 05 Mar 2020, 09:24

And the answer is that the RN will have 13 NATO standard frigate hulls and not one fully kitted out

inch
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby inch » 12 Mar 2020, 12:30

Wouldn't surprise me After all this coronovirus crisis ends the government might build a hospital ship for spare capacity in emergency

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Ron5 » 12 Mar 2020, 15:14

Would be a darned good idea too.

That's assuming all the legal and staffing issues can be solved and I'm sure with the right attitude they can be.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby dmereifield » 12 Mar 2020, 16:23

inch wrote:Wouldn't surprise me After all this coronovirus crisis ends the government might build a hospital ship for spare capacity in emergency


Certainly would have come in handy now

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby inch » 12 Mar 2020, 18:41

Bet they might set up RFA argus as a back up on short standby also army Field medical teams on standby I'm guessing

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Caribbean » 12 Mar 2020, 18:58

I think the reality is that the RN (and the other Services) would love to have the use of a hospital ship but not on their coin. In the past it would probably have been operated by the Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service, with an RMAS prefix. Unfortunately that's now Serco and SD, which doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
.
Inch is right, though - a couple of decent sized hospital ships would be the equivalent of an extra hospital, available to both the civilian and military authorities, anywhere in the World they are needed. Co-operate with the NHS (people would be fighting to do a six month rotation onboard) and our remaining merchant marine colleges and you could get a fair amount of training benefit out of them as well.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Phil Sayers » 17 Mar 2020, 19:02

Sounds like moves are afoot to make this become reality:

James Glancy
@jaglancy@NavyLookout and I publicly discussed the need for a UK hospital / disaster relief ship funded by
@DFID_UK a few years ago. It’s now an essential future purchase.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan
@annietrev
Thank you for sharing your article. Quite agree which is why I am progressing this project at pace with officials in
@DFID_UK and @DefenceHQ to work out the best way forwards.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby dmereifield » 17 Mar 2020, 23:07

Won't believe it until we see it being laid down

jonas
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby jonas » 18 Mar 2020, 08:52

Parliamentary written answers 17th March 2020 :-

Asked by Lord Touhig
Asked on: 05 March 2020
Department for International Development
Hospital Ships: Procurement
HL2302
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Integrated Security, Defence and Foreign Policy Review will consider the possibility of procuring a hospital ship.
A
Answered by: Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
Answered on: 17 March 2020

DFID and the Ministry of Defence already work closely together deploying ships to respond to humanitarian emergencies. For example, following Hurricane Dorian in the Bahamas last September, RFA Mounts Bay played a critical role in the UK response.

The integrated review is the deepest review of the UK’s foreign, defence, security and development policy since the end of the Cold War.

It will establish the strategic aims for our national security and foreign policy, determining the capabilities and structural reforms needed to meet those aims and how we will work with international partners and organisations to promote the UK’s interests around the world.

No decision has been made on the construction or operation of a UK hospital ship, and we will continue to ensure that UKaid is deployed in a way that maximises value for money for development and the UK taxpayer.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Ron5 » 18 Mar 2020, 15:32

jonas wrote:... we will continue to ensure that UKaid is deployed in a way that maximises value for money for development and the UK taxpayer.


Uh huh.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Caribbean » 18 Mar 2020, 16:23

The US is deploying USNS Mercy and USNS Comfort to assist in the Covid-19 outbreak. Sounds like they might be useful.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Mar 2020, 16:25

send ours here... right away

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 18 Mar 2020, 20:48

Caribbean wrote:The US is deploying USNS Mercy and USNS Comfort to assist in the Covid-19 outbreak. Sounds like they might be useful.


The need to deploy these two ships should only be seen as one thing. They're a massive floating indictment of the God-awful US healthcare system.

They will not be useful. They will be, at best, a tiny PR fig leaf. Having to deploy a military hospital ship to one of your home ports is a colossal admission of failure.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Jake1992 » 18 Mar 2020, 21:07

RichardIC wrote:
Caribbean wrote:The US is deploying USNS Mercy and USNS Comfort to assist in the Covid-19 outbreak. Sounds like they might be useful.


The need to deploy these two ships should only be seen as one thing. They're a massive floating indictment of the God-awful US healthcare system.

They will not be useful. They will be, at best, a tiny PR fig leaf. Having to deploy a military hospital ship to one of your own ports is a colossal admission of failure.


You say that but Iv heard that plans are in place here to use military hospital facilities if need be does this not equate to the same.

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Qwerty » 18 Mar 2020, 21:19


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RichardIC
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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby RichardIC » 18 Mar 2020, 21:21

Jake1992 wrote:You say that but Iv heard that plans are in place here to use military hospital facilities if need be does this not equate to the same.


OK, where have you heard it?

For the record there are no UK military hospitals apart from deployable field hospitals (and RFA Argus).

The sole exception is the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine (RCDM) at Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham, where the military medical personnel are integrated with NHS staff although they wear their own uniform.

The Defence Medical Services, when they deploy, are largely dependent on reservists whose day-job is working for the NHS, so there is nothing to be gained there.

The main requirement at the moment is for staff trained in the use of ventilators. The NHS has approx 7,000 ventilators. The DMS has 35!!!

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby Jake1992 » 18 Mar 2020, 21:29

RichardIC wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:You say that but Iv heard that plans are in place here to use military hospital facilities if need be does this not equate to the same.


OK, where have you heard it?

For the record there are no UK military hospitals apart from field hospitals (and RFA Argus).

The sole exception is the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine (RCDM) at Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham, where the military medical personnel are integrated with NHS staff, although they wear their own uniform.

The Defence Medical Services, when they deploy, are largely dependent on reservists whose day-job is working for the NHS so there is nothing to be gained there.

The main requirement at the moment is for staff trained in the use of ventilators. The NHS has approx 7,000 ventilators. The DMS has 35!!!


I’m only say what I heard yesterday on talk radio

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Re: Should the royal navy have a real hospital ship?

Postby dmereifield » 18 Mar 2020, 23:36

RFA Argus likely to be utilised surely?


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