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Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
11%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
117
26%
An LCS-like modular ship
20
4%
A modernised Type 23
21
5%
A Type 26-lite
65
14%
Less than 5 hulls
21
5%
5 hulls
61
13%
More than 5 hulls
88
19%
 
Total votes: 457

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Mar 2019, 14:25

shark bait wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Modern escort has grown so high that, the distance between OPV and a frigate is large enough to hold distinct class of warships
I think we have created this middle range solely because it is convenient for the budget.

Either the region is benign, or it is hostile. The RAF operate Reaper and Typhoon, they do not have a combat Hawk in the middle because there is no environment suitable for this middle tier. Why is the naval domain different?
I understand your point. But, it clearly means less number.

This is the reason why USAF recently ordered F15EX, even though they have F22 and F35. And this is why French Marine Nationale has La Fayette and Floreal, even though they had Georges Leygues-class first-rate frigates. It is just a matter of decision. I am sure there is NO "only one truth", there are many truths.

Note I myself is a lover of ~3 Floreal-class-like simple T31e and 9th T26 full-fat version, in place of 5 T31e as now planned. :thumbup:

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 25 Mar 2019, 14:30

Sure, I can understand the reasoning if the intention is to build resilience through numbers, but patrol frigates don't achieve that either. The resilience only materialised if losses can be tolerated, I don't think anyone is putting the T31 in the expendable category.

The UK should never play the numbers game because the UK will never win at the numbers game. It should be clear the UK need to peruse high quality specialist for any manned asset, and the cheap numbers should be made up by drones.
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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Mar 2019, 14:45

shark bait wrote:Sure, I can understand the reasoning if the intention is to build resilience through numbers, but patrol frigates don't achieve that either. The resilience only materialised if losses can be tolerated, I don't think anyone is putting the T31 in the expendable category.
I do not think it is considered "expendable". For example, French Marine Nationale is not thinking their Floreal-class as expendable. Simply they deploy to theater in which "even Floreal can easily survive". And in such theater, in many cases Floreal-class is "the queen of the ocean", simply because the high-end assets is so limited in number, and they rarely visit such theater.

T31e is also just looking at lower threat environment.

Even a T45/T26 cannot survive in white-sea against Russia. But, even a T31e can survive in west Medditeranian against Russia. Am I clear?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Pongoglo » 25 Mar 2019, 14:55

Timmymagic wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:I won't be surprised it will have a 76 mm gun (even re-used from somewhere),


I think the 4.5 is now nailed on for T31. It's free, training pipeline and spares available and there has been some re-certification work underway recently, including the first land based trials for a long time.


4.5 inch gun............

LEANDER2.jpg
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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Mar 2019, 15:10

But, there are also many figures with 76 mm gun (Leanderfrigate.com), and detailed models with 57 mm gun (at exhibition). I am not saying it is NOT 114mm gun, but I have no evidence yet it is decided to be 114mm.

http://51.38.82.119/design/gallery

From post of Ron5-san in Dec 2018.
DtqdwlZWoAARcM3.jpg%20large.jpg
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Timmymagic
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 25 Mar 2019, 16:35

donald_of_tokyo wrote:But, there are also many figures with 76 mm gun (Leanderfrigate.com), and detailed models with 57 mm gun (at exhibition). I am not saying it is NOT 114mm gun, but I have no evidence yet it is decided to be 114mm


The 76mm and 57mm get rolled out on the design for international arms fairs, but there just isn't headroom in the budget for a 57mm or 76mm gun. Add in the additional cost of training, procedures, munition stockpiles etc. and a free 4.5 inch is about as nailed on as anything is in T31 land. Plus the RN never seemed to be that impressed with the 76mm when they had it on the Peacocks out in HK.

If you had a choice a 76mm at c£3m per unit or 57mm gun at c£5m per unit OR a free 4.5 inch main gun plus something else?

Personally for T31 4.5 inch makes perfect sense. It will actually deliver a decent volume of fire ashore with decent sized shells, can deliver a large airburst round if necessary against a UAV, USV or FIAC and can actually stop a decent sized ship. In a budget constrained world my only preference ahead of it would be if we could find some US 5 inch mounts going cheap that could be re-furbed. At least it might have some commonality with T26 then, but then again T45 would have an orphan calibre for the remainder of its life...

Mind you it does make you wonder what the US did with the 25 odd Oto Melara's from the OHP's that have been scrapped or sunk...maybe they've kept them for the USCG as spares, maybe they're in a warehouse somewhere...

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Qwerty » 25 Mar 2019, 19:27

Timmymagic wrote:Mind you it does make you wonder...//...maybe they're in a warehouse somewhere...


Packed in cases between the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant at the Smithsonian

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 25 Mar 2019, 20:08

shark bait wrote:It's important to remember the T23 GP still has a sonar and it is still capable of providing protection across all domains, it is an escort, not a patrol ship.


Completely agree - a T31 at a budget of £250mn will not even get close to a GP T23.

shark bait wrote:I recognise there are simpler tasks that don't require a combat frigate, and the RN have just bought 5 new patrol boats, plus planning 2 multi-mission ships, and already posses 3 Bays.

The RN already plan to have 10 ships at its disposal for the simple tasks, why does it need another 5?


Because the Bays + FLSS will not be the same as a Patrol Sloop. The FLSS will be be a HVU, in anything but a benign environment it will have an escort / consort of some kind. Bays will be tied up in the Gulf, Caribbean and also with the ready amphibious assets. To do anything else would be madness.

The 5 B2 Rivers plus the 5 Avenger Class B3s will be the globe trotting / forward based flag poles plus a low level Littoral Consort for the FLSS. The money saved could (if it’s real money) pay for another T26, which will give real power projection, not one on paper.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 26 Mar 2019, 00:20

Qwerty wrote:Packed in cases between the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant at the Smithsonian


Actually had a look at the Sinkex's with FFG's....

The Oto Melara 76mm was still present in all circumstances...what a waste. Thats 5 taken out of the warehouse then...surprised the USCG didn't ask for them...

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 26 Mar 2019, 00:52

Timmymagic wrote:If you had a choice a 76mm at c£3m per unit or 57mm gun at c£5m per unit OR a free 4.5 inch main gun plus something else?
Depends.

If it is Leander, 76/57 mm do not require re-design of forward section, which will make it cheap. Also the arsenal will be very small, and will not carry many shells. If Arrowhead 140 or MEKO A200, no re-design is needed, but not sure about how many shells they carry. So, Leander pushing for 57/76mm is reasonable (not saying 4.5inch is bad).

The 4.5 inch is large, heavy and shall require much more maintenance than 76/57 mm = costy to operate. On the other hand, even though 76/57mm can share logistics and investments with NATO navies, it is new to RN, as you said. Which will win?
Personally for T31 4.5 inch makes perfect sense. It will actually deliver a decent volume of fire ashore with decent sized shells, can deliver a large airburst round if necessary against a UAV, USV or FIAC and can actually stop a decent sized ship.
I read somewhere that airburts round has been decommissioned?

And anyway, here is the key points.

- Without guided round, 4.5 inch NGFS will be very limited compared to modern 5inch guns. I suspect even 76mm Volcano guided round is better in NGFS than non-guided 4.5 inch round (I might be wrong). I am also sure a guided-NGFS-round for NGFS for 57mm will emerge soon (maybe a modified ORCA).

- STARES/DARTS round for 76mm, and 3P and Orca rounds for 57mm is much powerful than simple 4.5inch round. In other words, in AAW and close-in defense, 76/57 mm is much better. As I understand, 4.5 inch is now almost nothing in AAW.

But, I shall say, Volcano or STARES/DARTS for 76mm is expensive, and will not be included in T31e as built. Comparing "normal" 57/76mm vs 4.5 inch, latter is surely much much better in NGFS. But, not in AAW (note 57mm is by default with 3P). These "options" make the cost and effect comparison a bit nasty... :D
In a budget constrained world my only preference ahead of it would be if we could find some US 5 inch mounts going cheap that could be re-furbed. At least it might have some commonality with T26 then, but then again T45 would have an orphan calibre for the remainder of its life...
Agreed. No guided round is needed as built, just a 5inch gun, with common mechanics will make it a winner. Simple 5inch gun has all the deficiencies I listed up the 4.5 inch gun has. But, it has a bright future with significant investment on-going, while 4.5inch is a dead-end. I also think 5inch gun is requires less maintenance/manpower than 4.5inch? At least, it is more compact.

I even think, leaving 2 T31e with 20mm CIWS on A-position (without mid-cal. gun), and buying three 5inch gun for the other 3 T31e could be and interesting option.

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RichardIC » 26 Mar 2019, 07:56

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I read somewhere that airburts round has been decommissioned?


I don’t think the 4.5 mk 8 has any meaningful anti-air function, although it has air burst for NGF support against shore targets. That’s based purely on things I’ve read in the past and couldn’t cite sources for.

However Donald is totally correct where it comes to guided ammunition. Nobody, for political/humanitarian as much as military reasons uses unguided air-dropped ordnance in a conflict zone and not without reason (Russia doesn’t count). It would be condemned as indiscriminate and barbaric.

Artillery will go the same way. If it can be guided it should be. That ain’t ever going to happen with the mk 8. It will become unusable in many situations.

Sorry for posting in the News thread.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 26 Mar 2019, 07:58

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Simply they deploy to theater in which "even Floreal can easily survive".

Yes, the same regions we can expect the Rivers, Bays and LSS to operate in. The RN already has 10 ships for those roles, job done!

Repulse wrote:The 5 B2 Rivers plus the 5 Avenger Class B3s will be the globe trotting / forward based flag poles plus a low level Littoral Consort for the FLSS

Where is this coming from? The US do not routinely escort their sea bases, and the RN does not routinely escort its amphibious ships (Bay class in the gulf, Albion in south china sea).

I see nothing that indicates the LSS will have an escort, and the RN doesn't have the resources to provide one even if it wanted. It's going to be a cheap ass civilian ship, build to operate in simple environments where the enemy has little to no ability to alter events at sea.

If anything the LSS will be better equipped than the patrol vessels, making it more akin to the escort carriers from the old days, providing protection to the rivers!
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Clive F » 26 Mar 2019, 09:32

ref 57/76mm vs 4.5". If the 4.5" is fitted from day one and is a "free transfer", thus getting it in the water for less; and the new ship is designed correctly, I would have thought changing to the 57/76mm at refit or when sold should be relatively simple. Again assuming is it designed correctly from the start to do that. Having said that we purchased aircraft carrier that could "easily" be converted to Cats and traps.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 26 Mar 2019, 12:08

Timmymagic wrote:a free 4.5 inch is about as nailed on as anything
Good that we can nail something down, in the "other place" they can't... I am not writing from the Hse of Lords either; just for clarity :)
- I hear that we have about 20
- pls remind me again, how many surface combatants (not the 30 mm pop-gun boats) are we planning for? And (at least the first few) T-26s will get the super-duper, newer one... so take them away from that total
Timmymagic wrote:a choice a 76mm at c£3m per unit
Those were the days (light-weight, patrol boat version); the current rapid-firing, with a deep mag to support that, comes at $ 10m

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 26 Mar 2019, 16:50

If the Mk8s are almost a free option why not have two at the front superimposed, the Arrowhead 140's parent has module slots used for two OTO/76. :lolno:

There must be quite a few medium calibre guns available on the second hand market, everything from twin Breda 40mm up to 76mm off the Dutch and German NATO frigates possibly.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby inch » 26 Mar 2019, 17:57

Not much t31 news then I quess folks

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Mar 2019, 15:14

When was the last actual press release regarding the T-31e that wasn't just a reaffirmation that the programme existed? To say information is thin on the ground is probably being too positive. May be the Moderators should lock this thread until something meaningful is published.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 27 Mar 2019, 15:25

or open it up to discussion

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 27 Mar 2019, 16:57

Lord Jim wrote:When was the last actual press release regarding the T-31e that wasn't just a reaffirmation that the programme existed? To say information is thin on the ground is probably being too positive. May be the Moderators should lock this thread until something meaningful is published.


Last news was March 22nd: Thales opening office in Bristol to support Type 31 CMS.

All the posts since have been tedious nonsense that has very little to do with the real T31 program.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 27 Mar 2019, 16:58

Tempest414 wrote:or open it up to discussion


A topic is already available for that purpose. Use it. This one is for news.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 27 Mar 2019, 17:39

Ron5 wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:or open it up to discussion


A topic is already available for that purpose. Use it. This one is for news.


I was just flipping the coin

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Mar 2019, 19:26

With these news threads should they be just for publishing articles or pointing people in the direction of such articles seen in the media, with any discussion carried out elsewhere? I say this as any discussion seems to stray into the future/fantasy realm very quickly once people start, including myself.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 02 Apr 2019, 08:08

You can read what you like into this story but never the less, the Camel Laird guy that was head of their Tye 31e bid has been promoted to chief operating officer as part of a set of moves that they promote as preparing CL for an expanding future.

https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/17542199.cammell-laird-management-restructure-in-bid-to-become-global-player/

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 02 Apr 2019, 09:19

Ron5 wrote:You can read what you like into this story but never the less, the Camel Laird guy that was head of their Tye 31e bid has been promoted to chief operating officer as part of a set of moves that they promote as preparing CL for an expanding future.
It's hard to know what way to take that story but regardless it's great to see Cammell Laird so confident and bullish about their future prospects :clap:

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 02 Apr 2019, 23:01

Which platform is CL planning to use to bid for the T-31e?


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