UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
11%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
116
26%
An LCS-like modular ship
20
4%
A modernised Type 23
20
4%
A Type 26-lite
65
14%
Less than 5 hulls
20
4%
5 hulls
60
13%
More than 5 hulls
88
19%
 
Total votes: 453

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1880
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Gabriele » 25 Oct 2018, 09:53

Well, it has to stay in service at least out to 2036 just for the Type 23, and possibly longer for the 45s, so...
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

Timmymagic
Member
Posts: 952
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 25 Oct 2018, 13:08

NickC wrote:These trials mark the first land based firing of a fully turreted 4.5" gun since the closure of HMS Cambridge in 2001.


Makes you wonder if they'll need to re-constitute a permanent installation like that if they end up with 5 inch Mk.45 and 4.5 inch Mk.8 Mod.1 or 76mm Oto Melara/57mm Bofors.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 25 Oct 2018, 14:09

The Mk8 is the wrong weapon system for the T-31e. The Platform will never be used for NGFS unless thing have gone serious wrong and it is not an effective anti-air or anti-surface weapon compared to weapons of 76mm or 56mm.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5292
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 25 Oct 2018, 14:14

I'd suggest neither are the 76mm or 56mm. They occupy the middle zone of being too small to have an effect on the surface, and too big to have an effect in the air.
@LandSharkUK

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1791
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 25 Oct 2018, 14:25

I disagree regarding the effectiveness of both the 76mm and 57mm. They are very effective anti-air weapons and are probably the best available guns for this role out there. The fact that both can be used as CIWS with the right support systems points towards this. Sure they cannot compete with SAMs on range but anything inside their engagement envelope is in a world of hurt. As for anti ship, with the increase range and fusing options and guidance packages available depending on the size of your wallet even the 57mm, can engage anything it has line of sight to. Yes you are not going to sink a CVN but you will mission kill at the very least the type of opposition the T-31e is likely to meet. And compared to ASHMs in the anti ship role 76mm and 57mm ammunition if far cheaper then the cheapest missile. These weapons suit the roles the T-31e is going to undertake. The alternative is to go even smaller is the platforms ends up an enlarged B2 River.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5292
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 25 Oct 2018, 14:42

Yes they can be used as CIWS, but I see no evidence they are effective against a modern ASM. The bigger guns already struggle with legacy subsonic missiles, they have no chance against a faster or more maneuverable target.

I see no evidence they are effective against a surface contact either. Every vessel is equipped with missiles these days, almost all of which out range the 57mm. If the Royal Navy is close enough to shoot something with a 57mm cannon they're doing things very wrong.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2540
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Oct 2018, 15:16

shark bait wrote:Yes they can be used as CIWS, but I see no evidence they are effective against a modern ASM. The bigger guns already struggle with legacy subsonic missiles, they have no chance against a faster or more maneuverable target.

I see no evidence they are effective against a surface contact either. Every vessel is equipped with missiles these days, almost all of which out range the 57mm. If the Royal Navy is close enough to shoot something with a 57mm cannon they're doing things very wrong.
I have a different point of view.
A: If the enemy vessels are armed with ASM, then shoot Sea Venom (or even) LMM from the Wildcat.
B: If the enemy boats are in swarm, armed with RPG or even man-portable ATGM, 57/76 mm guns will solve it.
C: If the enemy boat are in swarm, armed with only machine gun, 57/76 mm guns and 30mm/20mm/12.7mm/7.62mm guns will solve it.

#note, "A" will not be in swarm, because ASM is very expensive.

I think 80% of the enemy will be "C", 15% "B", and "A" will be only 5% or even less.

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2041
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 25 Oct 2018, 15:21

donald_of_tokyo wrote:#note, "A" will not be in swarm, because ASM is very expensive.

Iran, a country the UK has common contact with in potentially hostile seas, heavily disagrees with that claim.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5292
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 25 Oct 2018, 15:23

Donald, by and large I agree with that analysis. My conclusion would be the 30mm (or better yet 40mm), is a more cost effective means of dealing with the asymmetric threats. A T31 with 3 x 40mm cannons would give good 360 protection, with a low instructive mount, and low operational and maintenance requirements.

Moving up the scale, the Wildcat is the sole solution to the missile boat problem, that's the battle proven method and the only way to neutralise the threat at range.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2540
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Oct 2018, 15:42

RetroSicotte wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:#note, "A" will not be in swarm, because ASM is very expensive.

Iran, a country the UK has common contact with in potentially hostile seas, heavily disagrees with that claim.
Iran is a BIG country, not a terrorists. When fighting with them, all weapons will be used. If a frigate faces a swarm of "ASM equipped boats" = missile crafts, it is a big mistake the same to a C17 faces a squadron of enemy fighters. These swarm missile crafts are petty expensive bits, and shall be handled with a squadron of Tornado/F35Bs with bunches of Brimstone/SPEAR3, not a single frigate.

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2041
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 25 Oct 2018, 16:31

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Iran is a BIG country, not a terrorists. When fighting with them, all weapons will be used. If a frigate faces a swarm of "ASM equipped boats" = missile crafts, it is a big mistake the same to a C17 faces a squadron of enemy fighters. These swarm missile crafts are petty expensive bits, and shall be handled with a squadron of Tornado/F35Bs with bunches of Brimstone/SPEAR3, not a single frigate.

I'll take this to escort thread for the reply.

Tempest414
Member
Posts: 664
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 27 Oct 2018, 09:21

So was there anything from Babcock at Euronaval 18 in regards to type 31 as I have not seen anything

Pongoglo
Member
Posts: 156
Joined: 14 Jun 2015, 10:39
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Pongoglo » 27 Oct 2018, 11:11

Tempest414 wrote:So was there anything from Babcock at Euronaval 18 in regards to type 31 as I have not seen anything


It would appear sadly no, so do we think that Babcock's no show at Euronaval finally signals the end of Team 31 and that BAE/CL Leander are now the only game in town?

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1160
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 27 Oct 2018, 11:29

Well - Arrowhead 120 is still on their website, but not specifically linked to the T31

https://www.babcockinternational.com/Case-Studies/What-We-Do/Marine/Equipment-and-Systems/Arrowhead-120
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
Location: United States of America

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Halidon » 27 Oct 2018, 18:05

Pongoglo wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:So was there anything from Babcock at Euronaval 18 in regards to type 31 as I have not seen anything


It would appear sadly no, so do we think that Babcock's no show at Euronaval finally signals the end of Team 31 and that BAE/CL Leander are now the only game in town?

We only have reporting to go on rather than anything official from MoD or the Babcock team, but I've seen nothing to indicate a withdrawal from the Type 31e bidding. They may be reverting to an A120-based bid, they may be reworking their A140 proposal, they may have an "A1xx" that they're putting together. While I too would have liked to see something, putting a model or concept at a trade show isn't priority 1 when you're in the process of putting your bid together. We're seeing something similar in the US right now: Nobody thinks HII has dropped from the Frigate comtest, even though it's been a fairly long time since they showed much of their concept, becuase it's pretty clear they're focused on one customer right now.

Tempest414
Member
Posts: 664
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 27 Oct 2018, 19:25

maybe they may go for a A130 design

Online
Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 790
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 27 Oct 2018, 20:13

Halidon wrote:They may be reverting to an A120-based bid
Arrowhead 120 is an interesting design but I don't think it will beat Leander, at least not in its current configuration.
Babcock-Arrowhead-2.jpg
Babcock-announces-Arrowhead-Type-31-frigate-1014x487.jpg
I think the A120 concept is just too high risk for RN being a clean sheet design. It would need to offer capabilities far in excess of what Leander can offer to be in with a chance and at present it just doesn't do that.

In my opinion the basic hull has a lot going for it with a 120m LOA and a beam of 19m. Clearly this makes it longer and wider than Leander whist maintaining a similar top speed. It also has the huge advantage of a vastly superior growth margin over Leander.

The core crew allocation is a very modest 80 which is less than Leander and the A120's ability to mount a Mk45 plus 8 ASM's, 64 CAMM and a single Phalanx is very impressive.

So why is Arrowhead 120 not racing away with the T31 contract? I think it's because the current configuration is trying to do too much. A streamlined design with the amidships mission space removed and replaced with 2 simple boat bays and a double Merlin capable hanger, the second of which could be used primarily as a large multipurpose space whilst retaining the ability to embark two helicopters if required.

With the 4 required RHIBs embarked in the boat bays and the combined misson space/hanger there would still be enough space for 4 ISO's crucially with direct access to the flight deck. With the RHIB and ISO requirement met the stern ramp could be removed and replaced with a genuine TAS/VDS capability.

This would simplify the design and result in a Tier2 frigate that could be upgraded if required to the following spec,

120m LOA
19m Beam
Mk45 main armament
64 CAMM or 32 CAMM and 8x Mk41 Strike cells
8 Harpoon or equivalent
Phalanx
2x 30mm's
Artisan
2150 HMS
2087 TAS
Double Merlin Hanger/combined misson space

The unknown at present is the proposed propulsion setup, a lot would depend on this. With CODOE/CODELOD propulsion and a top speed in excess 25 knots, a reconfigured Arrowhead 120 with a stern optimised for ASW could be a real winner.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 28 Oct 2018, 01:32

Not sure where you are getting those specs from. They are quite different from the A120 brochure.

That does show CODLAD though.

Online
Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 790
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 28 Oct 2018, 06:53

Ron5 wrote:Not sure where you are getting those specs from.
I am simply looking at the realistic growth potential of the Arrowhead 120 design in the same way that you maximised the Leander with the Super Leander (TM).

At present,
A120 can mount 16 Mk41 cells so thats 64 CAMM quad packed.
A120 can mount Mk45, 8 Harpoon or equivalent, Phalanx, 2x 30mm's

I am proposing that Arrowhead 120 could be simplified by rearranging the amidships configuration and installing simple port and starboard boat bays. The hanger layout could also be maximised with a double hanger design, one of which could be used as a mulpurpose mission space. This would allow the stern ramp to be removed and replaced with a stern optimised for 2087. By removing the stern ramp it would allow the height of the flight deck to be lowered thereby making a Merlin capable hanger more straightforward. It's the 19m beam that makes so many things possible.

Is this the brochure you are quoting Ron?
https://www.babcockinternational.com/-/ ... 0AB5DC5A58

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1738
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 28 Oct 2018, 10:33

About guns, anybody knows the prices for 57 mm and 76 mm gun?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 8000
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Oct 2018, 10:40

Poiuytrewq wrote:With the 4 required RHIBs embarked
Batch1 emphasis on Maritime Sec Ops
Poiuytrewq wrote:removed and replaced with a genuine TAS/VDS capability.
easily done for Batch2
Poiuytrewq wrote:double hanger design, one of which could be used as a mulpurpose mission space.
without the double hangar aspect of it, the multi-purpose mission space is already there
- yr 1st image shows that someone sent the frigate on a mission with remote MCM kit boarded... it's not just the boats, a command module, and another container for maintenance kit, would be right next to where the boats will be operated (behind :) a roller door)

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1160
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 28 Oct 2018, 11:05

abc123 wrote:About guns, anybody knows the prices for 57 mm and 76 mm gun?

Last time I saw a direct quote as to cost, they were around $5m each, but that was several years ago. I think the significant cost difference was that the 57mm needed an RTB service more frequently than the 76mm (every 4 and 7 years, from memory, but please don't rely on that!!)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1738
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 28 Oct 2018, 11:09

Caribbean wrote:
abc123 wrote:About guns, anybody knows the prices for 57 mm and 76 mm gun?

Last time I saw a direct quote as to cost, they were around $5m each, but that was several years ago. I think the significant cost difference was that the 57mm needed an RTB service more frequently than the 76mm (every 4 and 7 years, from memory, but please don't rely on that!!)


Yeah, I saw these numbers too...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

User avatar
Repulse
Senior Member
Posts: 1343
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 28 Oct 2018, 11:16

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:With the 4 required RHIBs embarked
Batch1 emphasis on Maritime Sec Ops
Poiuytrewq wrote:removed and replaced with a genuine TAS/VDS capability.
easily done for Batch2
Poiuytrewq wrote:double hanger design, one of which could be used as a mulpurpose mission space.
without the double hangar aspect of it, the multi-purpose mission space is already there
- yr 1st image shows that someone sent the frigate on a mission with remote MCM kit boarded... it's not just the boats, a command module, and another container for maintenance kit, would be right next to where the boats will be operated (behind :) a roller door)


“Batch 1” role could be easily handled by an extended River class with a Wildcat Hangar - no significant cost for design and I’d argue you’d get 3 of these for the same price as a single T31e plus the overheads of building / designing a new class.

“Batch 2” would be done perfectly by a T26.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 1160
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
Location: England

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 28 Oct 2018, 11:46

Moved post to Escorts thread, though in response to a post here
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill


Return to “Royal Navy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gandalf, rightroyal, Tinplate Turleigh and 7 guests