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Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
11%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
116
26%
An LCS-like modular ship
20
4%
A modernised Type 23
20
4%
A Type 26-lite
65
14%
Less than 5 hulls
20
4%
5 hulls
60
13%
More than 5 hulls
88
19%
 
Total votes: 453

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 21 Oct 2018, 20:13

Zero Gravitas wrote:'despite last-ditch efforts by ministers to save the north Devon site.'
I wonder did the same ministers consider giving the yard some orders as a last ditch effort?

Actions speak louder than words...

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 22 Oct 2018, 09:08

Poiuytrewq wrote:
Zero Gravitas wrote:'despite last-ditch efforts by ministers to save the north Devon site.'
I wonder did the same ministers consider giving the yard some orders as a last ditch effort?

Actions speak louder than words...


I doubt it, if this article is anything to go by :-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... racts-dry/

clinch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby clinch » 23 Oct 2018, 07:50

jonas wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:
Zero Gravitas wrote:'despite last-ditch efforts by ministers to save the north Devon site.'
I wonder did the same ministers consider giving the yard some orders as a last ditch effort?

Actions speak louder than words...


I doubt it, if this article is anything to go by :-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... racts-dry/


Reading that article, it looks like Leander for T31, then.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 23 Oct 2018, 10:22

BAE showcasing Leander at Euronaval
DqLSi07W4AA2HhR.jpg

DqLSjXYXcAAkXcv.jpg

Leander in all its glory.

What's with the dazzle camouflage?

Is it to reduce the comparison between Leander and the River Batch 2 :D
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Timmymagic
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 23 Oct 2018, 15:34

Cammell Laird's T31e model at Euronaval looks different....RN flag on it, no SSM's, can't see a mission bay or doors and the bow section looks increasingly like Venator...


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Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 23 Oct 2018, 15:48

Timmymagic wrote:Cammell Laird's T31e model at Euronaval looks different....RN flag on it, no SSM's, can't see a mission bay or doors and the bow section looks increasingly like Venator...


However, it looks like two "tubs" for AAW missiles forward and possibly an eight cell VLS amidships
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Timmymagic
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 23 Oct 2018, 15:52

Caribbean wrote:However, it looks like two "tubs" for AAW missiles forward and possibly an eight cell VLS amidships


Same model, slightly different angle, little less glare from the display case. Different layout of amidships VLS for sure. Seems odd that CL and BAE would be exhibiting different models...CL's has an RN ensign as well....


donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 23 Oct 2018, 16:00

I think, the model in Euronaval 2018 Camell Laired's booth is more a "remnant" of BAE Cutlass concept. See below. Actually, if you carefully look at Xav-san's photo, there are boat opening mark in the middle of the hull.
TWSTACGEOJBQHDZOLOERQ2FB7E.jpg

while that in BAES booth is more Leander
Leander-concept-for-Royal-Navy-Type-31e-Frigate-4.jpg
May be simply using old and new models ?
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Timmymagic
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 23 Oct 2018, 16:06

donald_of_tokyo wrote:May be simply using old and new models ?


Indeed its just a model, can't for the life of me see the openings on the CL one though. You would have thought they'd have co-ordinated a little...
Do BMT have a stand there though? Not seen anything about their proposals yet.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 23 Oct 2018, 16:14

Timmymagic wrote:...can't for the life of me see the openings on the CL one though...
comparison.jpg
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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 23 Oct 2018, 18:38

Timmymagic wrote:Cammell Laird's T31e model at Euronaval looks different....RN flag on it, no SSM's, can't see a mission bay or doors....
I think it's just Cammell Lairds old model, it's been around for a while now.
image.jpg
Now that the Leander design has matured it must be about time for that model to go in for a refit :thumbup:
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 23 Oct 2018, 21:37

Poiuytrewq wrote:Now that the Leander design has matured it must be about time for that model to go in for a refit

Didn't you get the memo - no refits for the T31 - sell it and build a new model :lol:
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 24 Oct 2018, 02:48

This whole idea of no refits and sell them on after X number of years and build replacements is probably the stupidest idea I have heard, and makes about as much sense as how the NSS is being implemented. It is just a waste of money to keep one or two ship yards in operation fully subsidised by MoD orders without which they would go under. SO the RN get vessels its doesn't want that cannot do what it need vessels for and then has to sell them after a decade or so and get more of the same.

For God's sake lets just keep building T-26s, one every eighteen months to two years on a rolling programme, building blocks at different yards and assembling them up in Scotland. Set the programme at say thirty years, possibly front loading he front end so we get the first half dozen by 2030 and then incremental improvements to the design and capability as the programme progresses and forget all the other nonsense.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 24 Oct 2018, 10:13

Lord Jim wrote:For God's sake lets just keep building T-26s, one every eighteen months to two years on a rolling programme, building blocks at different yards and assembling them up in Scotland. Set the programme at say thirty years, possibly front loading he front end so we get the first half dozen by 2030 and then incremental improvements to the design and capability as the programme progresses and forget all the other nonsense.


As I have said in the past if we set a Budget of 1.15 billion a year for the next 30 years = 34.5 Billion we could have

14 x tier 1 escorts = 14 billion
6 x tier 2 escorts = 3 billion
12 x Venari -95 MHPC = 1.8 billion
1 x LHD / LPH = 750 million
4 x batch 2 Bays = 1 billion
3 x FSS = 1.2 billion

this list comes to 25 billion would be able to 3 yard working leaving 9.5 billion for likes of a hospital ship- SSK's - ship yard upgrades and all doable in current budgets

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 24 Oct 2018, 10:44

As I have said previously, your proposal looks good to me.

The main problem at present is that we have a log jam of programmes all needing financed at the same time, whilst also trying to replace the CASD which has the potential to be a budget buster. We also have to consider that the infamous 'black hole' is yet to be filled.

Really the solution is plotting a way through that financial maze whilst keeping within the yearly £1.15bn. How does your plan look if broken down into financial years out to 2040 for example? At some point the financial pressures must ease allowing some pretty interesting programmes to be funded. Around 2028-2032?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 24 Oct 2018, 11:29

Escorts thread, folks, if you want to discuss theoretical "greater fleet" plans. :)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby NickC » 24 Oct 2018, 13:46

Lord Jim wrote:Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Postby Lord Jim » 24 Oct 2018, 02:48

This whole idea of no refits and sell them on after X number of years and build replacements is probably the stupidest idea I have heard, and makes about as much sense as how the NSS is being implemented. It is just a waste of money to keep one or two ship yards in operation fully subsidised by MoD orders without which they would go under. SO the RN get vessels its doesn't want that cannot do what it need vessels for and then has to sell them after a decade or so and get more of the same.

For God's sake lets just keep building T-26s, one every eighteen months to two years on a rolling programme, building blocks at different yards and assembling them up in Scotland. Set the programme at say thirty years, possibly front loading he front end so we get the first half dozen by 2030 and then incremental improvements to the design and capability as the programme progresses and forget all the other nonsense.


My view

The goal should not be to make ships last longer by increasing costs and complexity and building in more potential capabilities for future proofing as it's impossible to predict future technologies and their associated requirements. The aim should be to build smaller and cheaper ships, 50%+, that can be replaced often enough so that the technology stays fresh and you can advance the design incrementally. Design for a 20 year life span so ships will always be state of the art.

Fisher refused to keep old ships in the fleet, few of the big ships were older than 1908 at Jutland. The IJN had a standard in the early twentieth century that new warships would be first rate for eight years and still usable for eight more years. .

How - ship should be designed for it's primary task and have a secondary function as long as it doesn't impact on the primary function and move away from multi-function ships, looking at the very, very expensive and nearly 9,000t Type 26. Limiting the number of missions per hull type is the most practical solution to reducing cost overruns and years of programme slippage in acquisition.

The way to do this is to build smaller and so the industrial base gets consistent work which makes it stronger and in a war it gives you the shipyard capacity to ramp up build, not as now when it looks like another shipyard Appledore is closing, .

The more ships also gives opportunity for younger officers to command ships at sea, extensive service at sea is the only reliable teacher to establish a competent cadre of trained officers and crew.

PS Commercial ships, tankers/bulk carriers life ~20 years, others ~ 25 years before scrapped

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 24 Oct 2018, 14:51

I have no problem with that but the whole idea that these are going to be replacements for GP Frigates needs to be ditched, the MoD needs to come clean and announce the T-31e as a long range patrol, presence vessel similar to those operated by the French Navy. Fi the vessels with either a 76mm or 57mm, a couple of autocannons and give then aviation facilities to operate a helo up to the size of a SH-60 in case the MoD leases assets to operate of these like some other navvies do on their patrol vessels. No SAM no AShM no CIWS. These vessel would not have a war role but would free up true escorts form patrol and anti piracy duties period. Any pretence of then being true warships is trashed.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby NickC » 24 Oct 2018, 15:46

You could also cancel the the remaining five Type 26s, £800M? = £4B and the Type 31e £1.25B for a total of £5.25B and spend £350M on new frigate as was the original budget for the Type 26 and you would have 15 new Type XX,s plus the 3 Type 26 under contract for a total of 18 frigates instead of current plan of 13, 40% increase in numbers :angel:

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby CameronPerson » 24 Oct 2018, 21:50



I wonder what’s come out to allow it to fit..

Timmymagic
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Timmymagic » 25 Oct 2018, 01:19

Some more images of the BAE Type 31 model at Euronaval with 57mm gun.


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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Oct 2018, 01:46

Timmymagic wrote:Some more images of the BAE Type 31 model at Euronaval with 57mm gun.
https: //twitter.com/FauteuilColbert/status/1054828602934595589
Great photos (although a little in the smoke). I could not stop picking up them here.

BAES model with 57 mm gun, newer design, presumably.
BAE1.jpg
BAE2.jpg
BAE3.jpg


CL model with old design, 76 mm. Look the amidship Mk.41 stays in the middle. Interesting what made it move aside. May be to accommodate "mission bay"? From this point, I guess this design is Cutlass, designed before T31RFI was open.
CL1.jpg


NOTE: 1: In BAE photo, we can see the starboard RHIB alcove (or mission bay) is, 11.5m -- 7.5m from forward, while in the port side it is 7.5m -- 11.5m. It was both 11.5m forward in the CL/BAE youtube. The BAE model carries, 2x 7.5m RHIB and 1x 9-11.5m RHIB.

2: Where is the CAMM data-link? Those mounted aside the main mast shall be satcom/scot.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 25 Oct 2018, 04:57

2. Bridge roof, hangar roof

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 25 Oct 2018, 07:42



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... racts-dry/



Reading that article, it looks like Leander for T31, then.

+
Poiuytrewq wrote:What's with the dazzle camouflage?

Is it to reduce the comparison between Leander and the River Batch 2 :D


About the article: Shares in Babcock fell 4pc following the publication of the report on Monday, bringing the business’ valuation down to £3.17bn. The research group has not disclosed the identity of any of its employees, and it is not a registered business in the UK.
- offshoring investment research, to get it out of the reach of regulation?

Poiuytrewq wrote:The main problem at present is that we have a log jam of programmes all needing financed at the same time

called ' block obsolescense' = bad planning
+
Poiuytrewq wrote:also have to consider that the infamous 'black hole'

= bad prgrm management (a few well executed projects in the mix won't save the day)

+ the approaching financial tsunami wave caused by the Dreadnoughts moving from design to build

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby NickC » 25 Oct 2018, 09:33

Type 31e option?

At Euronaval 2018 Babcock promoting a 'rejuvenated' 4.5" Mk8 Mod 1 Medium Calibre Gun.

Under contract from MOD with upgraded gun to increase reliability and availability and has successfully completed a series of live firing trials with QinetiQ at MOD's Eskmeals Range in Cumbria. These trials mark the first land based firing of a fully turreted 4.5" gun since the closure of HMS Cambridge in 2001.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... rials.html
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