Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Objections to Arrowhead being selected as the successful Type 31e bidder have always fallen into two broad categories:
i) Fundamental opposition to the T31e concept - so let's spend as little as possible and get the crappiest solution
ii) English jobs, even though metal-bashing accounts for a minority of the value of the contract
Both have always struck me as, quite frankly, a bit perverse.
And we also know the final decision will be more about politics and the immediate headlines to be generated than about anything required by the RN.
So there are going to be more twists-and-turns in this. And Babcock must have had to realign their bid. Appledore has shut, H&W was only ever going to going to be a bit-part player with 130 workers on the books, and there's also the associated issues with Ferguson.
I wouldn't be totally surprised if this is hailed as the saviour of Appledore or even H&W.
Nor would I be utterly surprised if it turns out Cammel Laird have flipped sides and find they'now in-line to build major blocks of Arrowhead.
i) Fundamental opposition to the T31e concept - so let's spend as little as possible and get the crappiest solution
ii) English jobs, even though metal-bashing accounts for a minority of the value of the contract
Both have always struck me as, quite frankly, a bit perverse.
And we also know the final decision will be more about politics and the immediate headlines to be generated than about anything required by the RN.
So there are going to be more twists-and-turns in this. And Babcock must have had to realign their bid. Appledore has shut, H&W was only ever going to going to be a bit-part player with 130 workers on the books, and there's also the associated issues with Ferguson.
I wouldn't be totally surprised if this is hailed as the saviour of Appledore or even H&W.
Nor would I be utterly surprised if it turns out Cammel Laird have flipped sides and find they'now in-line to build major blocks of Arrowhead.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Setting aside a debate over the technical challenges and management of the ferry contract: Babcock is going to assemble the frigate, Ferguson's portion of the work has never been detailed and the general plan has been presented as "flexible workshare." I don't see any reason Ferguson couldn't build hull or deckhouse modules, I've seen no great criticism of their quality and they have an experienced workforce. If shipyards got blacklisted every time there was a bad contract, we'd all be buying all out ships from Korea.Ron5 wrote:Fergason (sp) went bankrupt because it was over a year late struggling to handle the technical difficulties building a couple of car ferries.
And it's going to build a frigate?
By the way, I couldn't find the newspaper story this morning.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
An Arrowhead 140 selection would be very welcome news, as far as i'm concerned. Design-wise, it's a clear winner. The RN ships will still be woefully under-equipped at entry in service, but at least there will be less constraints to their slow growth once in service. More credible customisation for export as well, although i'm not optimistic about the "E" in the name ever coming to anything in any case.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.
Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Perhaps BAE didn’t want the work and put in the bare minimum effort for their bid to be credible and create a competition (keeping the Govt happy). They have more than enough design and build work with T26 and they have already stated the profit margin on T31 was unattractive for them.
Perhaps this was a done deal a year ago?
If A140 ends up with artisan and CMS1 then I reckon this solution was the favourite all along.
Just a thought.
Perhaps this was a done deal a year ago?
If A140 ends up with artisan and CMS1 then I reckon this solution was the favourite all along.
Just a thought.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
My objection to Babcock's bid has always been centered around the low probability of them completing the contract on time and money.
Recent events have only lowered those odds. All three of their supply yards have gone bankrupt.
But the MoD have significant history in giving contracts on the basis of votes rather than industrial capability. Taxpayers and the RN have had
to pick up the billions of dollars in contract overruns and corrective actions. Stupid.
Also stupid is to state that the A140 is the "best" design. If Arleigh Burke was in the completion, it would be the "best" design but it's chances of being built for 250 million and delivered by 2023 are about equal to the A140.
Also of note is that the recent decision to remove the cost of material recovered from decommissioned type 23s from the 250 million, seems not to benefit A140 as most of its kit is sourced from outside the UK.
Recent events have only lowered those odds. All three of their supply yards have gone bankrupt.
But the MoD have significant history in giving contracts on the basis of votes rather than industrial capability. Taxpayers and the RN have had
to pick up the billions of dollars in contract overruns and corrective actions. Stupid.
Also stupid is to state that the A140 is the "best" design. If Arleigh Burke was in the completion, it would be the "best" design but it's chances of being built for 250 million and delivered by 2023 are about equal to the A140.
Also of note is that the recent decision to remove the cost of material recovered from decommissioned type 23s from the 250 million, seems not to benefit A140 as most of its kit is sourced from outside the UK.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Camel Laird was going to do the work in building the Leanders not Bae.PapaGolf wrote:Perhaps BAE didn’t want the work and put in the bare minimum effort for their bid to be credible and create a competition (keeping the Govt happy). They have more than enough design and build work with T26 and they have already stated the profit margin on T31 was unattractive for them.
Perhaps this was a done deal a year ago?
If A140 ends up with artisan and CMS1 then I reckon this solution was the favourite all along.
Just a thought.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.Gabriele wrote:More credible customisation for export as well, although i'm not optimistic about the "E" in the name ever coming to anything in any case.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Yes. In my view Scottish independence is inevitable - probably following the next vote. I am now pretty sure I will see a united Ireland in my lifetime and I’m in my sixties.abc123 wrote:I would hardly call myself ( at least English ) nationalist, but that's just simple logical thinking. Let's face it, the genie is out of the bottle. 5 years ago, a few percents more and Scotland would be out. If the referendum is tomorrow, I'm pretty sure that Scotland and even the NI would be out. And one day, it will be 51% out. 2020 or 2025 or... I doubt that my kids will in school one day learn about the United Kingdom in current borders and with current constitutnt countries. Also, HMG obviously has no intestinal fortitude to tell the Scots that referendum is one-in-a-generation thing, so they can get the next one say after 2035. So, if things are like that, and they are- the only logical thinking is to prepare for such unfortunate, but non the less realistic case.RichardIC wrote:Jeez, this has flushed the English nationalists out.
That means, strategic defence (industrial) facilities should be based in the only part of the country that will not separate- and that's England. And not only shipyard(s) but Faslane with nuclear deterrent support facilities, MPAs etc.
Simple as that.
That said, I personally prefer Arrowhead design, but there are things much more important than this or that half-arsed frigate design.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Because the Dutch have freak-all to do with the Arrowhead design.Repulse wrote:With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Why would a prospective customer be interested in the AH140 over the OMT design(s)?RichardIC wrote:Because the Dutch have freak-all to do with the Arrowhead design.Repulse wrote:With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Danish not Dutch and they’re no longer in the shipbuilding business, in reality you need a hot production line to support an export build even if it is on-country the customer will need support from a parent yard. I think Babcock are well placedRepulse wrote:With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.Gabriele wrote:More credible customisation for export as well, although i'm not optimistic about the "E" in the name ever coming to anything in any case.
Though wouldn’t be surprised if CL get a block
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
If Scotland leave the Union we’ll have much bigger things to worry about than the completion of T31 - like Faslane, the old subs at Rosyth, dry docking the carriers. Moving frigate assembly to a brown field site - likely Merseyside - shouldn’t be too difficult.clinch wrote:Yes. In my view Scottish independence is inevitable - probably following the next vote. I am now pretty sure I will see a united Ireland in my lifetime and I’m in my sixties.abc123 wrote:I would hardly call myself ( at least English ) nationalist, but that's just simple logical thinking. Let's face it, the genie is out of the bottle. 5 years ago, a few percents more and Scotland would be out. If the referendum is tomorrow, I'm pretty sure that Scotland and even the NI would be out. And one day, it will be 51% out. 2020 or 2025 or... I doubt that my kids will in school one day learn about the United Kingdom in current borders and with current constitutnt countries. Also, HMG obviously has no intestinal fortitude to tell the Scots that referendum is one-in-a-generation thing, so they can get the next one say after 2035. So, if things are like that, and they are- the only logical thinking is to prepare for such unfortunate, but non the less realistic case.RichardIC wrote:Jeez, this has flushed the English nationalists out.
That means, strategic defence (industrial) facilities should be based in the only part of the country that will not separate- and that's England. And not only shipyard(s) but Faslane with nuclear deterrent support facilities, MPAs etc.
Simple as that.
That said, I personally prefer Arrowhead design, but there are things much more important than this or that half-arsed frigate design.
As others have said I don’t think BAE were ever going to win this and Leander was going through the motions. They have enough on their plate especially the elephant in the room which is Successor
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Apologies my mistake, I typed too quickly without checking - should have been the Danish.RichardIC wrote:Because the Dutch have freak-all to do with the Arrowhead design.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
+SD67 wrote:As others have said I don’t think BAE were ever going to win this and Leander was going through the motions. They have enough on their plate especially the elephant in the room which is Successor
As for the latter, if the builds end up in a BAE fitting-out yard, to become more British ("to the bootstraps" ), then that would leave zero surprises as for the outcome of the twisted process ... yes, I agree that we haven't seen all of it yet.Ron5 wrote:of note is that the recent decision to remove the cost of material recovered from decommissioned type 23s from the 250 million, seems not to benefit A140 as most of its kit is sourced from outside the UK.
- would solve the BAE headache (with capacity), while capitalising on their true advantage (and the Gvmnt's sunk investments; TOBA et al)
- and what do the Danes do with their frigates? When OMT became a design bureau, the Navy retained an in-house fitting-out capability
As for the many criticism of the NSS (mainly RE: the 'how'?), the 'what' in it was achieving greater integration across the civvy and military segments, so as to avoid further Death Valleys in the industry (Gvmnt dishing out monies for nothing) and also to create efficiencies to further the "e" ends
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Any actually news about the T-31e, or should discussion about how and where we build the T-31e be in the Escorts thread? Maybe with the very slow release of information about both the T-26 and T-31e, these respective threads should become open to general discussion and a Escorts (News only) thread started with the existing Escorts thread become one for general discussion on the Royal Navy's future warships. Just a thought.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Lord Jim, agree on your suggestion, the problem I see is that when someone posts news it then turns into a debate on the news which then depending on your insider knowledge becomes quickly to some fantasy discussions. Having clearer guidelines and mods actively managing the News thread deleting posts not linked to new or relevant news would help serve a wider audience.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
From https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-qu ... irst-time/
...Whilst onboard, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, .... When asked about the timeline of the Type 31 programme she described how she had recently met the project team and hoped to have an announcement soon and that “£250 million per ship was still the programme cost”...
...Whilst onboard, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, .... When asked about the timeline of the Type 31 programme she described how she had recently met the project team and hoped to have an announcement soon and that “£250 million per ship was still the programme cost”...
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Couldn't agree more. Though I don't know how many mods we have, and I'm sure they don't have the time to continuously monitor said threads. How many times do people have to be told this is a news only thread. A little self policimg would be a major help, surely it's not that difficult to stick to the rules.Repulse wrote:Lord Jim, agree on your suggestion, the problem I see is that when someone posts news it then turns into a debate on the news which then depending on your insider knowledge becomes quickly to some fantasy discussions. Having clearer guidelines and mods actively managing the News thread deleting posts not linked to new or relevant news would help serve a wider audience.
It appears to me that some folk just like to see their opinions on the screen, whether or not they are relevant to the thread.
- shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
It is likely the best of the bunch, but it's in poor company so that's no great endorsement.Gabriele wrote:An Arrowhead 140 selection would be very welcome news, as far as i'm concerned
At the end of the day its still not as good as the ship it replaces, with the RN having to accept a capability climb down.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Well we nearly made it week but it seems speculation and personal opinion strikes again.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Why not?shark bait wrote:
At the end of the day its still not as good as the ship it replaces, with the RN having to accept a capability climb down.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
your on the wrong thread, you should be on current and future escorts as this is 'news only'
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
I knew that there was fresh money for the constabulary, but to be that quick , onto these pages
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
They have names, we just don’t know what they are. But Burslem, home of Port Vale FC, seems unlikely.
Type 31 Frigates
Ruth Smeeth: [284468]
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will make an assessment of the potential merits of naming one of the future Type 31 frigates after Burslem, the mother town of the potteries.
Anne-Marie Trevelyan:
The names of the Type 31 Frigates have already been proposed by the Navy Board and are awaiting final approval. Following approval, the names will be announced at appropriate opportunities in the future.
I have asked the Navy Board's Ships' Names and Badges Committee to note the proposal for the name 'Burslem' to be considered for a ship or submarine in the future.
Type 31 Frigates
Ruth Smeeth: [284468]
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will make an assessment of the potential merits of naming one of the future Type 31 frigates after Burslem, the mother town of the potteries.
Anne-Marie Trevelyan:
The names of the Type 31 Frigates have already been proposed by the Navy Board and are awaiting final approval. Following approval, the names will be announced at appropriate opportunities in the future.
I have asked the Navy Board's Ships' Names and Badges Committee to note the proposal for the name 'Burslem' to be considered for a ship or submarine in the future.
Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Potteries? WTF?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…