Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[NickC]

Naval Group place order for 20 MTU 16V 8000 M91L diesel engines, 8,000 kW, for five FDI ship sets, the first order of the new 16-cylinder version of the engine, to be delivered between 2020 and 2027.

Iver Huitfeldt class fitted with earlier variant, the IH class contract was placed with OSS Dec 2006, 4x MTU 20 (cylinder)V 8000 M70 diesel 8,200 kW @ 100% MCR, total 32.8 MW. Will be of interest in which variant of the MTU 8000 series Babcock has chosen for the T31.

[SKB]

..........

[shark bait]

integrated masts

Where are you getting an integrated mast from? Not a T31 feature is it?

Weren't the French selling exports ships where the locals would build the hull and all the sophisticated bits would come nearly packaged and ready to 'plug n' play' from France. Can't remember which country (possibly South American) but it seemed like a good idea.

The French has sold an integrated mast to Egypt, and the Dutch has sold one to Mexico, and it's a brilliant idea. Keep all the high value engineering in house, and lets the customer do the cheap metal bashing bit. This is what a modern shipbuilding strategy looks like.

Images, French top, Dutch bottom.

[NickC]

March Desider has a page on T31, a few quotes, no new news


The five ships will be delivered by end of 2028
Babcock International has confirmed steel will be cut for the first ship in 2021 at Rosyth and that it will be in the water in 2023
Babcock's solution is based on and built upon the proven design of the Iver Huitfeldt frigate
DE&S worked with the Navy to minimise the amount of GFE
with a more "hands off" approach has meant that together with industry, DE&S were able to deliver the best possible solution and real value for money

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Online.pdf

[ArmChairCivvy]

DE&S worked with the Navy to minimise the amount of GFE
with a more "hands off" approach has meant that together with industry, DE&S were able to deliver the best possible solution and real value for money

While I agree with that, what will actually be passed on from the T23 LIFEX... to either of the new classes?

[NickC]

DE&S worked with the Navy to minimise the amount of GFE
with a more "hands off" approach has meant that together with industry, DE&S were able to deliver the best possible solution and real value for money

While I agree with that, what will actually be passed on from the T23 LIFEX... to either of the new classes?

DE&S not disclosing, may not be decided though thought that highly unlikely as Babcock would need specification locked down before signing FP contract, could be positive or too negative so as to be too embarrassing to mention.

One omission is DE&S did not quote date for first ship to be del'd to RN, just first ship in water 2023, no mention state of completion, the first in class always understandably take longer, in US Fincantieri shipyard the LCS Freedom class are launched into the water at about 80% complete but that's after twelve launched, if they win the contract for the new FFG(X) planning on launch at over 90 percent complete, targeting 96%.

[Lord Jim]

From looking at the design detail available, a lot of the GFE is going to be very minor stuff. Besides Sea Ceptor most of the high end equipment seems to be new. I suppose some of the aviation handling equipment can be transferred, for example but With the CMS, sensors, main and secondary guns, radar we could be looking at things as small as Galley equipment, fire fighting equipment and so on.

[Tempest414]

Well the HMS off the T-23's would be a good thing to have and better than no HMS at all

[Ron5]

The only source for the CAMM being GFE is Richard Scott, I hope he is correct and not misleading us. Not seen that mentioned anyplace else. Though the mushrooms are a pretty big clue.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Babcock would need specification locked down before signing FP contract

Could explain the 'minimalism'.

GFE was a 'Big Thing' to keep the T26 cost down... not happening
- -why could it not happen with T31... which ever Build Batch?

[Ron5]

Babcock would need specification locked down before signing FP contract

Could explain the 'minimalism'.

GFE was a 'Big Thing' to keep the T26 cost down... not happening
- -why could it not happen with T31... which ever Build Batch?

Little T31 GFE to keep MoD risk down. New approach.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Yes. Integration is a risk.

But if you have the stuff, in the backroom, and the accountants are valueing it up every couple of years (cost of carry; though going interest rates are close to negative territory)
- which is the bigger risk? Junking the stuff? Or integrating it?

[Lord Jim]

If the MoD is now intent on off loading as much risk as possible in its procurement programmes the costs are going to rise accordingly. I really hope this ongoing review gets down amongst the weeds and make some very hard decisions, including cutting any programmes that are not absolutely essential. Cancelling UK manufactured platforms for oversea ones if they are cheaper must be on the table, and existing contract must be up for renegotiation to get a better deal or else the MoD must walk away and let the lawyers fight it out. the £2Bn for the five T-31 must be fixed with any over runs covered by Babcock. This must be laid down in the full production contract and be water tight. They in turn must be honest with themselves and the MoD and of they cannot build the ships for the given budget then the programme is stopped/scrapped.

[Ron5]

Yes. Integration is a risk.

But if you have the stuff, in the backroom, and the accountants are valueing it up every couple of years (cost of carry; though going interest rates are close to negative territory)
- which is the bigger risk? Junking the stuff? Or integrating it?

Integrating it because it lets the shipbuilders off the hook by offering a set of convenient excuses they can hide behind.

[jonas]

Speculate all you want, you will still have to wait. The MOD isn't going to tell you'

Commons written answers 9th March 2020 :-

Asked by Mr Kevan Jones
(North Durham)
Asked on: 28 February 2020
Ministry of Defence
Type 31 Frigates: Procurement
22376
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the Government Furnished Equipment list is for the Type 31 Frigate.
A
Answered by: Jeremy Quin
Answered on: 09 March 2020

The Government Furnished Equipment list for the Type 31 Frigates includes a number of sensitive Ministry of Defence strategic assets. The disclosure of this information would, or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of the Armed Forces.

[ArmChairCivvy]

This "The Government Furnished Equipment list for the Type 31 Frigates [...] disclosure [...] would, or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of the Armed Forces" is one of those moments for flipping the coin:
"Heads" - cry!
"Tails" - laugh!

Indeed, to justify building a great many of the ... ever more expensive... T26s, the same list was flouted, or should one say promoted, in the open
... except that none of it has happened so far.

So the 'poor' cousins (T31s) getting some or all of the same is
... A State Secret

[Lord Jim]

So fire extinguishers, Flat screen TVs and the table ware from the Captain's table etc., are classed as sensitive

[Aethulwulf]

Speculate all you want, you will still have to wait. The MOD isn't going to tell you'

Commons written answers 9th March 2020 :-

Asked by Mr Kevan Jones
(North Durham)
Asked on: 28 February 2020
Ministry of Defence
Type 31 Frigates: Procurement
22376
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the Government Furnished Equipment list is for the Type 31 Frigate.
A
Answered by: Jeremy Quin
Answered on: 09 March 2020

The Government Furnished Equipment list for the Type 31 Frigates includes a number of sensitive Ministry of Defence strategic assets. The disclosure of this information would, or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of the Armed Forces.

This non-answer is actually quite informative...

...what are the ship equipment areas that traditionally MOD is most tightly lipped about? Answer: intelligence gathering, e.g. RADAR ESM and COMMS ESM.

What GFE is likely to be transferred onto the T31...maybe RADAR ESM and COMMS ESM?

[Lord Jim]

But I thought all of those were part of the package being provided by Thales along with the CMS.

[RichardIC]

This non-answer is actually quite informative...

...what are the ship equipment areas that traditionally MOD is most tightly lipped about? Answer: intelligence gathering, e.g. RADAR ESM and COMMS ESM.

What GFE is likely to be transferred onto the T31...maybe RADAR ESM and COMMS ESM?

This non-answer is totally uninformative - and I've written more Parly responses than you can wave a 10" stick at.

It means, literally, nothing. It's frustrating as feck.

[ArmChairCivvy]

What GFE is likely to be transferred onto the T31...maybe RADAR ESM and COMMS ESM?

An interesting POV. The answer might be found in what was recycled from the 4 command frigates - which had a top spec relative to the others - in the aftermath of the 2010 fiasco
- at the time the embarrassment was so high that the details were made public (so as to say: we're not wasting all of the investments)

[NickC]

What GFE is likely to be transferred onto the T31...maybe RADAR ESM and COMMS ESM?

An interesting POV. The answer might be found in what was recycled from the 4 command frigates - which had a top spec relative to the others - in the aftermath of the 2010 fiasco
- at the time the embarrassment was so high that the details were made public (so as to say: we're not wasting all of the investments)

The 7th Feb T31 graphic on Save the Royal Navy shows the Thales Vigile-D(igital) ESM fitted, understand Vigile a variant of the Thales ESM developed for T45.

Possibility that the GFE will be jammers and soft kill?

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-ty ... e-in-view/

[ArmChairCivvy]

I like the detail in the T31 rendering from Babcock (in the StRN article, linked above)
and it would be easy to see how by reusing the aft (boat bays, helo deck and the mission bay under it) for something like this https://www.navalnews.com/wp-content/up ... 24x576.jpg , and
the frigate that many claim not to be a frigate could become quite an asset to the MTF, self-deploying with it, while losing from the "warfighting" side of things only the helo (err, the MTF should have aplenty) and one self-defence weapon.

[Ron5]

STRN is mistaken, the equipment shown in the graphic labelled as Vigile-D ESM is in fact Thales Gatekeeper.

[ArmChairCivvy]

in the graphic labelled as Vigile-D ESM is in fact Thales Gatekeeper.

Ohh...