Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[S M H]

The light frigate along the lines of modern type 21 would cover the general purpose requirement. But the numbers need to be looked at the armament should include Sea captor and a anti ship weapons. The only thing that concerns me having experienced the results of Treasury driven cost savings is when push come to shove will the frigate acquit itself well in combat.

[SKB]

The light frigate along the lines of modern type 21...

Good comparison. I agree. There's a thread for T21 for comparison: http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=151

[Tony Williams]

Size by itself is quite cheap to buy and run, and an advantage in open oceans - but not in shallow/confined waters or small ports. The main cost of ships lies in the sensors and weapon systems (plus, in the T26, some complex sound-insulation methods and a gas turbine engine).

So the primary question is: what would be new light frigates be expected to do?

I have the impression that the government is thinking in terms of any serious future naval operations being based around a carrier, with the roles of the T45 and T26 being primarily as carrier escorts. Routine flag-showing and policing jobs could be handled by something smaller and a lot cheaper, with relatively limited armament (although I hope that includes Sea Ceptor, without which it would be too vulnerable). Apart from room for a helo, other armament could be limited to guns, which are more suitable for policing jobs as they allow a scalable response (e.g. warning shots or limited damage). If the ship is given the new 127mm gun chosen for the T26 then it will be able to use guided projectiles of the Excalibur and Volcano types.

[malcrf]

As long as we get 13 T26 I wouldn't mind a few of these:

http://www.defence24.com/260172,dsei-20 ... nik-design

Perhaps built at non BAE yards like Cammell Laird

[rec]

or build these under licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iver_Huit ... ss_frigate

[Tony Williams]

As long as we get 13 T26 I wouldn't mind a few of these:

The SDSR clearly limits the number of T26 to eight. The other five, replacing T23 in the general role, will be lighter and cheaper than T26.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The punch line on the RR design, at the end of the text, is interesting.

More interesting is the quick-change capacity from Maritime Security fit-out to MCM with off-board systems, without any physical changes:

" It is worth to note that despite the fact the vessel is capable of housing an 11 tonnes helicopter and 11 m long boat (or unmanned water-craft[ plus a command container for it, as shown in the picture that goes with the article]), the Rolls-Royce company managed to contain the length of the ship within 100 meters.

CDV ship design has already been examined by the Centrum Techniki Okrętowej [Ship Design and Research Centre] based in Gdansk. As a result, it has gained the top certificates, allowing it to operate within any part of the world, excluding the ice-covered waters.

What’s interesting, due to the wide scope of operations executed by the ship, Rolls-Royce also qualifies the CDV design as a light frigate."

Despite the certificate the design is slightly undersized, according to BMT's Venator studies, which concluded that 103-107m would be the minimum for prolonged missions on the oceans.

[arfah]

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-port ... r-warship/

BMT's Venator design for reference.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Or, you can buy their capability modelling tool and design "your own" patrol frigate

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/4622463/B ... AJun13.pdf

[Dahedd]

or build these under licence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iver_Huit ... ss_frigate

Is that not a bit big for the idea of a light Frigate. Cracking ship though. The Rolls Royce or BMT versions look more likely.

Just a thought though. Would an Abaslom class work?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMS_Absalon_(L16)

[shark bait]

This whole concept really doesnt sit well with me. Light firgates are terrible, and are only good for bosoting numbers.

To be useful, a ship needs great systems, and endurance. A light frigate may be able to fill one of those criteria, but there is no way both those criteria can be filled on a small hull (unless we master some of thepeculiar observations from quantum mechanics). Both the BMT and rolls royce concepts fall directly into the light frigate category, and should be avoided.

The type 26 is big, bigger than a traditional frigate, so if this mystery new frigate is a return to something similar to the type 23's scale that could be a reasonable concept, perhaps something similar to the italians new PPA.

Non of this is ideal. The type 26 should be out multipurpose do everything ship, but the fucks at BAE couldnt manage it, I shall continue that rant on the T26 thread. Im praying we dont end up with a incompetant litoral combat ship that will only be able to piss its pants if it ever had to do anything other than look cool.

and there it is, my thousandth comment

[abc123]

Speaking of light/cheap frigates, maybe you should order them from Denmark:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalon-c ... pport_ship

Not exactly light, but cheap- definitly... And general-purpose as hell...

[shark bait]

Speaking of light/cheap frigates, maybe you should order them from Denmark:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalon-c ... pport_ship

Not exactly light, but cheap- definitly... And general-purpose as hell...

That is what the type 26 should be!

[abc123]

I agree. But when MoD in their infinite wisdom decided thatlarger ships like Type 45 should have no TLAMs, they had to go somewhere, so we have what we have. I still think thatType 26 is a good project, but damn too costly...

But, IMO additional 5-6 Absalon-type frigates would be a great thing, even if equipped with just 127 mm gun, 2 x 30 mm guns, 1 or 2 Phalanx and 2 x 4 anti-ship missiles... CAMM launcher ( nothing too expensive, just say 24 missiles ) and torpedo launchers would also come handy...

[WhitestElephant]

Clearly the Royal Navy couldn't resist the steady creep on capabilities for the T26. Resulting in what is now, an expensive 1st rate ASW 'frigate' - although at this stage 'destroyer' is probably a more sensible term! This steady creep on size, capability and cost has led the the 5 GP T26 being effectively 'axed'.

To be honest, I don't blame them. The Royal Navy really only wanted those 8 ASW T26, and chose to make them as capable as possible. The extra 5 GP T26 were simply surplus, and more importantly, unfit as escorts for Carrier Strike due to the lack of ASW. Carrier Strike has always been the priority for the RN, and this SDSR reflected that; F-35 orders sped up, MARS SSS, both carriers in service and a firm commitment for 8 ASW T26.

As such, we are left in the unique position where a new class of "lighter" GP frigates are on the table. No doubt, the RN were behind this, and similarly, there is no doubt that HMG took into consideration the need to sustain the complex warship industry (8 T26 is not enough, simple) and the concerns of the SNP and Scotland.

So with Carrier Strike firmly on track, and with a future fleet of 14 1st rate major surface combatants to protect them. The question is, can the Royal Navy this time around, resist the urge for capability creep on a new class of "lighter" GP frigate? I truly hope so.

This new class of frigate will be at home on counter-piracy/narcotics missions, disaster relief, flying the flag and other such constabulary duties. But crucially, it must also be capable of war fighting... such as providing NGFS in support of forces ashore, naval blockades (e.g Libya), protecting amphibious and RFA ships and if necessary, provide mass to Carrier Strike. These are a few, but there are more, and all require a decent self-defence and local area defence capability, endurance and sea keeping etc

While a GP T26 is far too big and expensive, a Khareef is too small. What are your thoughts?

Does 24 x CAMM sound about right? 4,000 - 4,500 tonne, 25 kn max speed, diesel, 5 - 6,000 nm range, merlin capable flight deck, with a hangar for Lynx? A 5 inch gun? What sort of anti-ship capability? NSM? CIWS? Manning levels?

For certain, no expensive; strike length VLS, towed array sonar, mission bay and low acoustic signature hull for ASW warfare etc etc

[SKB]

On 3 December 2013, in a Westminster Hall debate, Philip Dunne (a minister at the MoD) stated that "We [the UK Government] intend to place an order towards the end of next year [2014], once the design is mature, which we expect to be for eight vessels initially...".

The T26 plan was to order a first batch of eight ASW first, with a second batch of five general-purpose T26's later. The five are now going to be a new class (T27?) rather than being T26's.

[abc123]

WhitestElephant

Well, IMHO a beefed-up Khareef should be just fine. Add say 1000 tons ( so about 3500 t+ ), put 127 mm gun instead of 76 mm, keep the rest of weapons same ( CAMM instead of MICA ) and add a longer range ( 6-7 000 nm ) and you have more than decent ship for 90% of needs. And the price should also be pretty decent. IMO no need for Merlin-size deck if such ship will operate Wildcat etc. NSM instead of Exocet and single Phalanx should be enough.

So if original Khareef costed about 130 mil. pounds, let this baby costs 200, IMO it's still a very decent price...

[shark bait]

Well, IMHO a beefed-up Khareef should be just fine.

A word of caution, do not get drawn in by the Khareef. Whilst on the outside they may look nice, they are not.

They managed to fit so much onto a small ship by sacrafacing quality, accomadation standards, and endurance. Non of those are at an acceptable level for the royal navy, especially the accomadation standards. They pack 100 people onto a platform we fill with 30. Big difference. I would also guess it can only deoply for around a week which is pretty useless unless denmark decide to pick on us.

[Dahedd]

Coming from a completely civvy perspective does the Absalom class not tick all the boxes. Particularly when u think of it as Carribean guardship. Plenty of space for disaster relief, twin hanger & space to upgrade. Would work perfectly & free up valuable Frigates & RFA vessels.

Having read the Wikipedia page it could probably free up a Bay class as an MCM mothership given its cargo & "flex"deck.

[abc123]

Well, if not Khareef, than surely Absalon should do the trick...

[arfah]

Well, if not Khareef, than surely Absalon should do the trick...

Absalon would not do the trick, it's a foreign design. We can't export other countries designs.

[SKB]

I'm guessing it'll be a brand new original British design. Probably named Type 27 for the UK, but "Global Utility Vessel" (or something equally pretentious!) for the foreign market.

[Dahedd]

Well, if not Khareef, than surely Absalon should do the trick...

Absalon would not do the trick, it's a foreign design. We can't export other countries designs.

Well I that case we could end up with a BAE Absalom copy costing double/triple what the original costs that we can't find export customers for anyway because it's too expensive. Why reinvent the wheel? We buy foreign aircraft & armour so why must the ships be a UK design?

I'd rather go with the BMT or Rolls Royce concepts than have BAE rip us off again.

[malcrf]

For me either the Absalon or the Iver Huidveldts would be great, if not the RR Miecznik.

[marktigger]

well thats another 10-15 years of concept drawings so a future government can postpone those