Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

inch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Just had a crazy thought, I wonder if given /mod think put meko design in and try get a kind of agreement that we pic meko design and Germany pics t26 design for mks180 after the disaster with f125 frigate and t26 doing well ,don't think it would be a bad trade off if new meko uptown the t31 mission

inch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Mean government and up to the mission ,sorry typing on mobile

inch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Plus thinking it thru arnt the Australian frigates a meko design with ceafar radar already incorporated Which the government has said it would look at this radar in future ?

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

For me the MOD has handed out 3 5 million pound design contracts to 3 teams yet we only know what one will look like and in 1 year a winner will be picked. We think Babcocks is pushing on with A140 but we don't know as they have removed type 31 from there site and we also think the Atles is going for A200 design.

I am starting to think that BAE have this in the bag and the other two are taking a 5 million pound pay out to play along with idea this is a competition

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Tempest414 wrote:For me the MOD has handed out 3 5 million pound design contracts to 3 teams yet we only know what one will look like and in 1 year a winner will be picked. We think Babcocks is pushing on with A140 but we don't know as they have removed type 31 from there site and we also think the Atles is going for A200 design.

I am starting to think that BAE have this in the bag and the other two are taking a 5 million pound pay out to play along with idea this is a competition
Babcock have stated categorically that the Arrowhead 140 is their offering, and they are one of the three who have been awarded the cash to grow that design. Why would they want to give away any design details to the other contenders, just to please the likes of us.

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Caribbean wrote:That mast is interesting - is it intended to mount flat-panel radar?
It is a tad bulky but I don't think that's the reason because of its shape - the top part angles outward which is the opposite of what you'd want your flat radar panels to do.

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Ron5 wrote:
Only one of the three bidders has even acknowledged their success in getting design contracts. Sigh

What do you read into that behaviour?
That the MoD have sent out extremely strict instructions that no one apart from themselves say anything about the program. They must be annoyed that their guaranteed happy news program has attracted so much criticism especially around the debacle of the stop & start.

Standard response by the UK establishment. Rather than looking to learn or improve, they just cloud everything in secrecy behind which the same idiocy is repeated.

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

jonas wrote:Babcock have stated categorically that the Arrowhead 140 is their offering
AFAIK they've reportedly said this in private but not in any public announcement.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

jonas wrote:Why would they want to give away any design details to the other contenders, just to please the likes of us.
I have seen nothing from Babcocks to say A140 is still on the table we just think it is . However as a British Tax payer I do feel I have a right to see something for my money at leased I can see what BAE have in mind. I am not asking for details at this point just what they have in mind and they should at this point have something.

In fact under latest projects on there site they have A120 and nothing about type 31

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:Standard response [...] just cloud everything in secrecy
Did you say nebulous? Fabula and nebula also seem to come in pairs...
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Tempest414 wrote:
jonas wrote:Why would they want to give away any design details to the other contenders, just to please the likes of us.
I have seen nothing from Babcocks to say A140 is still on the table we just think it is . However as a British Tax payer I do feel I have a right to see something for my money at leased I can see what BAE have in mind. I am not asking for details at this point just what they have in mind and they should at this point have something.

In fact under latest projects on there site they have A120 and nothing about type 31
This is a tweet direct from Thales, hope it answers your doubts :-


Thales UK
‏ @ThalesUK

.@DefenceHQ has today announced that Team 31 has been shortlisted in the UK's Type 31(e) next generation frigate competition. Team 31's Arrowhead 140 ship solution comprises Babcock, @ThalesUK, @BMT_Global, OMT, @Harland_Wolff1 and Ferguson Marine. http://thlsuk.com/dTA030mVHzV
7:46 am - 10 Dec 2018

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

jonas wrote: Team 31's Arrowhead 140 ship solution comprises Babcock, @ThalesUK, @BMT_Global, OMT, @Harland_Wolff1 and Ferguson Marine.
That shot one of the many fabula down; however, this is not just foggy, but the MDP rocket will need to travel through many nebula... to land anywhere sensible.
- I would be the first one to admit that it is tough, but when the relevant 'big picture' information is being withheld, one can only make light of it (or the efforts)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

Must admit I was pretty incredulous when I heard that Atlas Elektronik were the unknown contender, and initially pretty cynical too - the idea of the RN sailing the oceans in a German boat just doesn't seem right at all :-) Since then however I've been reading up on the latest Meko's and specifically the South African 'Valour ' Class and it seems that they have come a long way since the Anzac's, in their time a very capable ship which with the latest upgrades in most scenarios could in all probability hold their own today. Most interestingly to my mind however is that the basic spec would seem to fit almost exactly that laid down in the T31 RFI, almost indeed as if that was the intent.....

Valour Class:

Displacement: 3700 tons
Length:
107.3 m (352 ft) at waterline
121 m (397 ft) overall
Beam: 16.34 m (53.6 ft)
Draught: 5.95 m (19.5 ft)
Propulsion:
CODAG WARP
2 MTU 16V 1163 TB93 diesel engines, 5,920 kilowatts (7,940 hp) each, 2 shafts for cruise;
1 General Electric LM2500, 20,000 kilowatts (27,000 hp)
1 waterjet
Speed: 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph)
Range: 8,000 nautical miles (15,000 km) at 16 knots (30 km/h; 18 mph)
Endurance: 28 days
Complement: 152[1] (incl aircrew)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valour-class_frigate
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Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

How much did they cost?

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Around £172m at r14.05 (approx. 2007 average) to the £.
So around £227m each, according to the BoE inflation calculator
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote:around £227m each, according to the BoE inflation calculator
- look into the CMS fit, upgrade it in line with more modern requirements (though the RN has a 'bulk buy') so we are bang on the qrtr of a bn target, per piece
- but that is before the need to reduce the crew, thru automation... and that is expensive
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

I like it, a gas turbine with no gearboxes or clutches, nice!

Now if they'd swap the direct drive diesel's for a hybrid electric drive it'd be perfect!
@LandSharkUK

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:if they'd swap the direct drive diesel's for a hybrid electric drive
How much £££? (or in per cent)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Shouldn't matter, hybrid is supposed to be cheaper in service
@LandSharkUK

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Caribbean wrote:Around £172m at r14.05 (approx. 2007 average) to the £.
So around £227m each, according to the BoE inflation calculator
Most amusing. I see the Egyptians are being offer two for a billion Euros.

dmereifield
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Caribbean wrote:around £227m each, according to the BoE inflation calculator
- look into the CMS fit, upgrade it in line with more modern requirements (though the RN has a 'bulk buy') so we are bang on the qrtr of a bn target, per piece
- but that is before the need to reduce the crew, thru automation... and that is expensive
And factoring GFE and the fact that ours won't be so well equipped (e.g. ASM won't be included etc)

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Ron5 wrote:Most amusing. I see the Egyptians are being offer two for a billion Euros.
About the same as it would take to build and equip two Arrowhead 140's properly?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Poiuytrewq wrote:the same as it would take to build and equip two Arrowhead 140's properly?
But, but... can't we pay in installments? This Brexit and all the rest being "taxing" issues for now :D
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:the same as it would take to build and equip two Arrowhead 140's properly?
But, but... can't we pay in installments? This Brexit and all the rest being "taxing" issues for now
Could we negotiate a rebate? :D

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

shark bait wrote:Shouldn't matter, hybrid is supposed to be cheaper in service
You are going to need a bloody big plug and charging cable to charge that size of Hybrid overnight! :D

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