Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

no need, can use the flow of water around the hull to charge it.
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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

https://qnadailyreport.blob.core.window ... -01-14.pdf

National Shipbuilding Strategy
[HLWS1213]
Earl Howe: My hon Friend the Parliamentary Under
Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Stuart
Andrew) has made the following Written Ministerial
Statement.
As stated in the National Shipbuilding Strategy, Sir
John Parker has agreed to review the progress that has
been made on implementation. I am pleased to announce
that Sir John has begun the review process and will report
to the Secretary of State for Defence by the summer.

A review of the NSS. Good, can't wait. I'm sure it will be clear yet detailed and insightful and provide answers to a lot of the questions we've been asking.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

RichardIC wrote:A review of the NSS. Good, can't wait. I'm sure it will be clear yet detailed and insightful and provide answers to a lot of the questions we've been asking.
It will be very interesting to see what Sir John has to say about the Appledore fiasco.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Will it be published before any decisions are made on the T-31e though?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

If the review is done over the summer, then it will be half-way/ 2/3s of the way through to the competitive stages ending:
- the three competitors will each receive around £5 Million to fund detailed design work. The MoD has taken the unusual step of inviting each competitor to negotiate for the combined design and build contract concurrently with the Competitive Design Phase contracts.
- The winner will be selected and the contract awarded at the end of 2019. Even though doing Design&Build contracts may sound like a backward step (compared to how e.g. house building has evolved), at least two of the three in the game are consortiums so we are not on the way to building a parallel integrated monopoly (heh-he: two monopolies, the one emerging and the one in existence... a duopoly :?: But what will you call 1.5 monopolies, if the winner is the one incorporating BAE? )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:If the review is done over the summer, then it will be half-way/ 2/3s of the way through to the competitive stages ending:
- the three competitors will each receive around £5 Million to fund detailed design work. The MoD has taken the unusual step of inviting each competitor to negotiate for the combined design and build contract concurrently with the Competitive Design Phase contracts.
- The winner will be selected and the contract awarded at the end of 2019. Even though doing Design&Build contracts may sound like a backward step (compared to how e.g. house building has evolved), at least two of the three in the game are consortiums so we are not on the way to building a parallel integrated monopoly (heh-he: two monopolies, the one emerging and the one in existence... a duopoly :?: But what will you call 1.5 monopolies, if the winner is the one incorporating BAE? )
Not sure what's you think is backward about design & build contracts. Seems a reasonable way forward given that is most cases, detailed ship design goes along in parallel with early build.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Taking on the big guns in bid to build frigate

A little known Dorset-based German-owned shipbuilder is chasing a lucrative prize
Robert Lea, Industrial Editor

January 21 2019, 12:01am, The Times


Deep in Hardy Country in a landlocked village featured in Tess of the D’Urbervilles is one of the stranger homes for a Royal Navy production line. In a new facility outside Winfrith Newburgh in Dorset, four miles inland from the English Channel, five Sea Class workboats out of thirty-eight ordered by the navy are under construction.

The vessels can be fitted for various jobs, from military personnel transport to minesweeping to submarine hunting, and are the sort of 11m to 18m boats that can be housed within the new giant Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers.

They are being assembled by Atlas Elektronik UK, a company that last year delivered a serious breakthrough in the 350-year history of the Royal Navy: its first autonomous vessel, a minehunter with no crew and no remote control from a sister ship or land-based command, commissioned as RNMB Hussar.

And there may be more to come from what is now a favoured contractor of the Ministry of Defence: Atlas Elektronik has been shortlisted for the £1.25 billion contract to build five of the country’s next generation of frigates, the Type 31e. At £250 million apiece, the frigates are meant to be cut-price, basic vessels that can be tooled up at extra cost. And with a delivery date of 2023, they are expected to be built in double-quick time.

The programme has been lauded by the government as a renaissance in British warship building, a revival using domestic naval engineering, design and technology for vessels that can be exported worldwide, sustaining or creating thousands of jobs in shipyards on the Clyde, Mersey or Tyne.

For critics, the Type 31e is a bargain basement option, dismissed as “the Lidl frigate”, exposing to the world how little buying power the MoD now has.

Unusually, bids to build the Type 31e have come in an open competition, a first for building British naval vessels in a generation. It pitches BAE Systems, with its capabilities on the Clyde and in partnership with Cammell Laird on the Mersey, against Babcock International, operator of the naval dockyards in Devonport and Rosyth — and against Atlas Elektronik, a third, hitherto unforeseen bidder little known outside the narrow world of defence procurement. Atlas Elektronik has pedigree, though. It is a direct descendant of the Admiralty Underwater Weapons Establishment that was based at Portland a little further along the Dorset coast. Its boffins, who put Britain at the forefront of torpedo development and maritime detection, evolved into what became Dera, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency, which was sold off by Tony Blair’s government as Qinetiq. Eight years after its 2001 privatisation, the naval scientists were sold off to Atlas Elektronik for £23 million.

As the spelling hints, Atlas Elektronik is a German company, in fact a subsidiary of Thyssen Krupp, an engineer that helped to arm the Kaiser and Hitler through successive world wars and which is still in the business of making U boats. Nevertheless, Atlas Elektronik UK, even after ten years of German ownership, remains resolutely British. There are no foreign accents amongst its 400 staff — doubled since the Qinetiq sale — as it is under MoD security regulations that mean only certain categories of UK passport-holder can work there.

John Sutcliffe, a former Royal Navy officer, is Atlas’s business development director. “Think of us as being specialists in the business of hunting and hiding submarines,” he said.
Atlas’s bid foresees the shipbuilding being done at Harland & Wolff in Belfast

Atlas’s underwater expertise means that it is a key contractor on the British submarines being built at Barrow, Cumbria, working on weapon and sonar systems but also on proprietary technology in towed arrays of fibre wire and hydrophones dozens of metres long snaking off the back of vessels listening for the opposition.

One wrinkle on the Type 31e bid is that the ministry has specified that the design for the frigates should be available for the UK government to export to overseas navies. Atlas’s bid foresees the shipbuilding being done at Harland & Wolff in Northern Ireland, builder of HMS Belfast and the Titanic, and Ferguson Marine, the ferry builder on the lower Clyde.

However, the design is based on Thyssen Krupp’s latest Meko A200 frigate presently in use by Algeria’s navy. How, some ask, can Atlas’s Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a German company?

One procurement source said: “It is requirement of the MoD for the Type 31e that it is a boat for UK export. That has not changed, with all the benefits of technology transfer and job creation here that comes with that.” The decision on the Type 31e is expected to be announced this year.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Ron5 wrote:Taking on the big guns in bid to build frigate
Interesting read Ron, thanks for posting :thumbup:

It all sounded encouraging until you reach the Meko A200 part. The proven Meko technology is certainly not a negative but I still think the A200 would require a lot of adaptions to get it over the T31 winning line.

Another weak link surely must be Harland & Wolff and Ferguson. Would the MOD really risk such a partnership given the squeaky tight budget and time frame?

The ASW specialisation is a very positive aspect of the bid but clearly only so much is possible for £250m per hull. A British designed frigate with proven Meko underpinnings could be an interesting prospect and worthy of consideration.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Reinforced my view that the Atlas bid is totally fake and scared up by the MoD/Treasury in an attempt to validate their crappy shipbuilding strategy.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A great piece... or some parody :D
Ron5 wrote: now a favoured contractor of the Ministry of Defence: Atlas Elektronik has been shortlisted for the £1.25 billion contract to build five of the country’s next generation of frigates, the Type 31e. At £250 million apiece, the frigates are meant to be cut-price, basic vessels that can be tooled up at extra cost.
- lego ships. anyone? :lol:
Ron5 wrote: a bargain basement option, dismissed as “the Lidl frigate”
see above
Ron5 wrote:pitches BAE Systems, with its capabilities on the Clyde
+
Ron5 wrote:t Babcock International, operator of the naval dockyards in Devonport and Rosyth
Ron5 wrote:against Atlas Elektronik, a third, hitherto unforeseen bidder little known outside the narrow world of defence procurement
Ron5 wrote:Atlas Elektronik has pedigree, though
Ron5 wrote: was sold off by Tony Blair’s government as Qinetiq. Eight years after its 2001 privatisation, the naval scientists were sold off to Atlas Elektronik for £23 million.
Ron5 wrote: a subsidiary of Thyssen Krupp
Ron5 wrote:is still in the business of making U boats
though the surface ships ownership could call for someone... in investigative journalism: Ron? Up or that :D
Ron5 wrote: Atlas Elektronik UK, even after ten years of German ownership, remains resolutely British. There are no foreign accents amongst its 400 staff
They could all come from the western slopes of the Rocky mountains...a nd easily fake that ;)
Ron5 wrote:How, some ask, can Atlas’s Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a German company?

One procurement source said: “It is requirement of the MoD for the Type 31e that it is a boat for UK export.
WHERE IS the hi-5 emoji??
Poiuytrewq wrote: weak link surely must be Harland & Wolff and Ferguson. Would the MOD really risk such a partnership given the squeaky tight budget and time frame?

The ASW specialisation is a very positive aspect of the bid
Yeah; exc. it wasn't in it (the spec) :)

Facka-ducka; Ron got in first... what a spoiler :(
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Ron5 wrote:However, the design is based on Thyssen Krupp’s latest Meko A200 frigate presently in use by Algeria’s navy. How, some ask, can Atlas’s Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a German company?
However, the design is based on OMT’s latest Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate frigate presently in use by the Royal Danish Navy. How, some ask, can Babcock's Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a Danish company?

Only BAE fit the bill then....
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:Only BAE fit the bill
We got there... :lol:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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shark bait wrote:However, the design is based on OMT’s latest Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate frigate presently in use by the Royal Danish Navy. How, some ask, can Babcock's Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a Danish company?
So it depends on whether intellectual property rights are part of the deal. Pure conjecture on my part, but as OMT have been trying without success to export their design for a number of years it's more likely.

Sorry, this is a News thread.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

For me the NSS is looking the wrong way it is look out at the export market a hard and unstable market where politics has more to do with sales than design and sometimes cost. For me we need to be looking inward and building a stable ship building program around 4 yards and to my mind the MOD can support 3 yards. Once we have this and are building good ship at a good price then exports will come however BAE needs to put more effort into concept designs of current ship like the Rivers to show what is possible

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

shark bait wrote:
Ron5 wrote:However, the design is based on Thyssen Krupp’s latest Meko A200 frigate presently in use by Algeria’s navy. How, some ask, can Atlas’s Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a German company?
However, the design is based on OMT’s latest Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate frigate presently in use by the Royal Danish Navy. How, some ask, can Babcock's Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a Danish company?

Only BAE fit the bill then....
There is a narrow "niche", to built a ship which design is from abroad. This is very very narrow niche = impossible. I can find only two examples:

- Irish Navy's OPV, which is Vard-7 design of CTX marine (not a Fincantierri group member).
- Israeli Gal-class submarines, of German design, were built in UK.

In MEKOA200 design case, it is zero possibility. Germany will directly built it, for sure.

In Arrowhead 140 case, Danish shipyard has already gone. OMT may use UK shipyards to build the 1st of class ship, and then technology transfer to build 2-3 hull locally. But, why not build it locally from the 1st-hull? T31e program is to make a shipyard which has (almost) no experience in building escort, capable of building it. Therefore, perfectly the same can happen. OMT will support the local shipyards, which has no experience in building escort, to build it. OMT gains the know-how, and UK shipyard gains nothing.

[EDIT] Only exception will be RNZN, which has no ship-building industry (they lost), and still looking for two frigates. But, only one candidate. And it is only a candidate, possibility is low, say 20% at the highest, I guess.

As such, there is almost ZERO chance for export order, when Arrowhead 140 or MEKOA200 are to be selected. If MOD selects it, the "export" blah-blah was just a lye and T31e is a scheme to give money to UK shipyards, and gain nothing else. In short, a waste of money.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:There is a narrow "niche", to built a ship which design is from abroad. This is very very narrow niche = impossible. I can find only two examples:
Donald, if I'm understanding you correctly (and I think you're referring to exporting a vessel designed by a third party nation), I don't think you're right. It will depend on the terms of any contract being negotiated and none of us on here are privy to those conversations.

OMT no longer build ships, so there may be discussion over transfer of intellectual property/design rights or some kind of license agreement.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RichardIC wrote:Donald, if I'm understanding you correctly (and I think you're referring to exporting a vessel designed by a third party nation), I don't think you're right. It will depend on the terms of any contract being negotiated and none of us on here are privy to those conversations.

OMT no longer build ships, so there may be discussion over transfer of intellectual property/design rights or some kind of license agreement.
1: May be, but how much will it cost? It must be included in the 1.25B GBP contract. Or, you need to pay a margin to OMT forever when you want to export, which will increase the export cost. These license cost (or margin) is needed to stop OMT bidding by themselves as a rival to your (Babcock's) bid for export sales, or partnering with other ship builders. Looking this big restriction, I think the license cost will be very expensive.

But, as you said, Arrowhead 140 has "a little more" hope than MEKO A200.

2: But, I cannot see any possibility Germany abandoning MEKO A200 export chance forever.

Anyway, my point is, the niche is very very narrow. You either need to pay a lot to "get" the "exclusive export license", or need to compete with the original designer.

What is more, all this takes place when your bid is fighting against Damen, Naval, Navantia, or even German or OMT bid. Also, South Korea, China, and Russia.


In conclusion, the only hope is Babcock to buy OMT itself. As Fincantierri bought CTX marine. (I'm, sure ALTAS UK cannot buy Blohm + Voss, can they?).

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

What could be a twist is if A140 can be built for the 250 million maybe the Danish navy could get Team 31 to build them 3 new ships to the same speck as the RN to replace the 4 Thetis class which in 2021 will be 30 years old this would make A140 a 8 ship build and could give the Danish navy

3 AAW frigates
3 GP frigates
2 Combat support ships
3 OPVs

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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donald_of_tokyo wrote:1: May be, but how much will it cost? It must be included in the 1.25B GBP contract. Or, you need to pay a margin to OMT forever when you want to export, which will increase the export cost.
Correct
donald_of_tokyo wrote:These license cost (or margin) is needed to stop OMT bidding by themselves as a rival to your (Babcock's) bid for export sales
That would need to be the subject of a legally binding agreement. As OMT no longer build ships there maybe no impediment to reaching such an agreement.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:I think the license cost will be very expensive.
We can't know that.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:2: But, I cannot see any possibility Germany abandoning MEKO A200 export chance forever.
My guess would be you're right.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Anyway, my point is, the niche is very very narrow. You either need to pay a lot to "get" the "exclusive export license", or need to compete with the original designer.
As above, subject to negotiation and agreement. What OMT currently stand to make from the work they've put into the Iver Huitfeldt is a big fat zero. Anything in advance of that at the moment may look like a good deal to them. And we don't know how the Babcock-led T31 design may differ from their eventual T31e proposal.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:What is more, all this takes place when your bid is fighting against Damen, Naval, Navantia, or even German or OMT bid. Also, South Korea, China, and Russia.
That's the whole point of putting the "e" in Type 31e however realistic/unrealistic
donald_of_tokyo wrote:In conclusion, the only hope is Babcock to buy OMT itself.
For reasons articulated above I don't think you are correct on that.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Atlas Elektronik UK have zero capability to design & build a frigate. All they are supplying is a mailing address for the use of ThyssenKrupp.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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shark bait wrote:
Ron5 wrote:However, the design is based on Thyssen Krupp’s latest Meko A200 frigate presently in use by Algeria’s navy. How, some ask, can Atlas’s Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a German company?
However, the design is based on OMT’s latest Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate frigate presently in use by the Royal Danish Navy. How, some ask, can Babcock's Type 31e vessel be exported by the British when it is the intellectual property of a Danish company?

Only BAE fit the bill then....
Why is it you keep harping on about the Arrowhead IP issue , despite myself and others repeatedly explaining why its extremely unlikely to be a problem at all ?
Like i have said before.....the Danish government doesnt care about the IP.......the Royal Danish Navy doesnt care about the IP....in fact it has been actively helping Babcock promote the Arrowhead to other potential customers.
And OMT , which actually owns the IP , certainly doesn't care because they know that without the backing of a major naval shipyard or a warship systems integrator they are not going to be exporting any warship design at all......hence their tie-up with Babcock.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by MikeKiloPapa »

Tempest414 wrote:What could be a twist is if A140 can be built for the 250 million maybe the Danish navy could get Team 31 to build them 3 new ships to the same speck as the RN to replace the 4 Thetis class which in 2021 will be 30 years old this would make A140 a 8 ship build and could give the Danish navy

3 AAW frigates
3 GP frigates
2 Combat support ships
3 OPVs
Not gonna happen......the Thetis class replacement isn't due til 2027 at the earliest , having just gone through a major mid-life update and upgrade. And their replacement will look nothing like the A140.....but more like the Norwegian Svalbard or Canadian AOPS.....ie a large ocean going OPV with significant icebreaking capability and designed for the arctic climate( ie enclosed forecastle, radar , deck heating etc. )

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Post by Repulse »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Only exception will be RNZN, which has no ship-building industry (they lost), and still looking for two frigates. But, only one candidate. And it is only a candidat
A better move would be to give RNZN a special financial deal on 2 T26s, forward base another RN T26 there and jointly man - this would be a good base for a Far East presence...
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Post by Caribbean »

Repulse wrote:give RNZN a special financial deal on 2 T26s
Who's paying for the "special deal", because someone has to? Two (or three) T31 with cross-decking of existing systems is far more likely. They just spent more on the refits than it would cost to buy a base T31e
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

MikeKiloPapa wrote:Not gonna happen......the Thetis class replacement isn't due til 2027 at the earliest , having just gone through a major mid-life update and upgrade. And their replacement will look nothing like the A140.....but more like the Norwegian Svalbard or Canadian AOPS.....ie a large ocean going OPV with significant icebreaking capability and designed for the arctic climate( ie enclosed forecastle, radar , deck heating etc.
Many thanks for the insight

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