Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

inch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Mmh eight ,think reporter dreaming on that front but nice try I guess ,or I wouldn't put it past government to scrap 3 type 26 and make eight type 31 instead ,you know that's the kind of things they do folks don't cha

Dahedd
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Dahedd »

inch wrote:Mmh eight ,think reporter dreaming on that front but nice try I guess ,or I wouldn't put it past government to scrap 3 type 26 and make eight type 31 instead ,you know that's the kind of things they do folks don't cha
Can't see that if they're still trying to plug the T26 for export. As it is we'll operate the smallest fleet of them.

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Five is what was expected. Good to hear that eight is a possibility. Hopefully experience will show that they are very capable ships and the second batch will a) be confirmed and b) be revised upwards from three to five

However, that said, eight T31 would be good, along with eight T26 and eventually eight T45rep (with at least 3 equipped for BMD). Obviously more of each would be better, but 8 of each is fairly realistic cost-wise over the next 30+ years and in line with supporting a single carrier group/ CASD plus the currently planned forward basing.

I'm also happy to hear about potentially "improving the lethality" of the OPVs. This should have been done at build. For the money we paid for them, they should have been built to full warship standard (and, frankly, gold plated).
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

inch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Can't see them arming them too much tho caribbean ,1) have no cash to spare prob with t31 about to kick off 2) and if did would only be very minor leathality increase lmm maybe ?

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Caribbean wrote:I'm also happy to hear about potentially "improving the lethality" of the OPVs. This should have been done at build.
Good point. I have always said they should have been fitted with a 57mm/76mm and two 30mm's at build, adding LMM even better. A Camcopter S-100 or similar would be a big help but Captas 1 or 2 might be a bit OTT.

They would make a useful Consort escort for something like the FLSS which could provide the aviation capacity but the bottom line is that using the RB2's in this way ensures the risk of mission creep is huge.

The priority must be fully credible T31's.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Shall we move to escort thread?

News (ok) --> + direct comments to the news (ok or not, depends on how moderator thinks) --> general discussion (shall not be on news thread, I think)...

S M H
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by S M H »

If the type 31 procurement follow the early type 23 frigates with additional equipment fitted. we could have a good G P frigate eventually. By getting hulls in the water they incrementally increasing capability it should be possible to avoid the type 45 gym situation.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

New details from SafetheRoyalNavy site on T31 Arrowhead. Interesting read.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/more-d ... te-emerge/

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

sorry virtually a cross post from STRN site comment

1: What will be transferred from T23? Floating radar-decoy, chaff/flare dispenser, and SeaSeptor data-link, mushroom-tube launchers and associated electronic boxes? I hope SeaSentor torpedo-defense decoy system to be transferred. As ripping off those kits are not so cheap, I guess exporting T23GP will be good.

2: A 57mm gun is great, much better than 114mm for ship’s self defense. But, if looks like without the dedicated FC radar, so guided rounds or even 3P rounds could be FFBNW?

3: 40mm is also very interesting to see. It will compete with "30mm+LMM turret". Also, where is the FCS to operate 3P-rounds? As 40mm guns lacks guided rounds, I guess "30mm+LMM turret" could be OK (= adding new 40 mm gun may not pay).

By the way, it's armament is still “a corvette level”, rightly reflecting their cost (almost no surprise).

Damen 10514’s (or Gowind-2500’s) has,
– 57/76 mm gun + 20-30mm guns
– 12 SeaMICA or more, 8 SSM
– small hull sonar and CAPTAS-2 towed sonar
– with SMART-S Mk.2 radar.

Compared, Arrowhead 140’s armament is;
– gun armaments are the same
– SAM is slightly better (if it really is 24 CAMM), but no SSM
– lacks
In place Arrowhead 140 has very capable hull. No trick nor magic. Good. Adding ASW with Damen 10514’s level will cost a lot, but adding just a small hull sonar, as well as 8x SSM (like NSM) are not that expensive.

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

The STRN graphic also notes the Thales UMS 4110 HMS as a possibility - seems like a fairly capable system (used on Horizon and FREMM)
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... nted-sonar
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Simon82
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Simon82 »

I’m not sure of the wisdom of adding so many new systems to the Royal Navy. Unless the new gun systems are going to be gradually rolled out across the fleet (e.g. the Bofors 40 mm could be used in the near future to up-gun the River class and others) it is adding a lot of logistical complexity and expense. A refurbished 5” gun and a pair of phalanx, might present a higher initial purchase price, but it would be weapons that the navy can already support and are training for.
Similarly the choice of Thales TACTICOS, while I’m sure it is perfectly good, is a questionable choice from a standardisation point of view.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Simon82, have added my thoughts on the need to rationalise the number of gun variants to the 76mm thread as it’s wider than just this topic. Perhaps a Mod can change the title if marktigger agrees.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Simon82 wrote:Similarly the choice of Thales TACTICOS, while I’m sure it is perfectly good, is a questionable choice from a standardisation point of view.
But an excellent choice from an exportability point-of-view. It's a popular CMS world-wide.
Simon82 wrote:I’m not sure of the wisdom of adding so many new systems to the Royal Navy. Unless the new gun systems are going to be gradually rolled out across the fleet (e.g. the Bofors 40 mm could be used in the near future to up-gun the River class and others) it is adding a lot of logistical complexity and expense.
We are talking about these systems coming into service over the next nine years. In the same period we will start to retire the T23s 114mm guns. We will be replacing a bespoke system (with all the exceptional coss that that entails) with two of the more common gun systems available in the West, with the reduction in costs engendered by sharing all future development costs with a world-wide user base. I'm not sure that the cost of maintaining two new logistics chains is going to be significantly greater than the current costs for the 114mm.

Agreed, though, that the 40mm is a good candidate for upgunning the B2 Rivers, as, being NDP, it can be "bolted on" in place of the current 30mm (though the existing platform for the 30mm my need modifying or removing).
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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SW1
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Maybe someone’s realised that CMS may not be as open architecture as it’s claimed to be and that the Thales one as it’s used by so many it is easier and cheaper to integrate new weapons and sensors with. Cerberus has always had good comments about it and it’s made by the same company

inch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Could someone explain if I'm right or has the rn just scrapped 5 X 1 billion t26 frigates saving 5billion but then ordering 5 underarmed t31 frigates for 1.25 billion ,saving 3.75 billion off the original brief and they can't even afford too spend more on fully arming it ? Even tho they just increased the defence budget again ,mmh ship kinda looks ok but heck at least arm it properly ,or was the plan to build and arm them as is royal navy use for a few yrs then sell them off and build a second batch of 5 correctly armed for rn ?

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

I have to say I am very happy with the way T-31 is shaping up would have been happier with a 76mm up front but the mix of 57mm and 40mm is something I like (Not that far from the triple 57mm idea I put forward last year) . It opens the door to two real options for up gunning the OPV's if that is what is wanted. I can't help but think we are so close to a truly good global patrol ship and we should be pushing that little be harder to finish it off with a HMS and NSM

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by cockneyjock1974 »

Is there any “news” on the SAM fit and will it have mk41 fitted at build?

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Firstly, I'm amazed an Arrowhead 140 can be brought in on the £250m budget with this specification. All involved with the T31 programme should be commended if they actually arrive on time and on budget. It's a lot of ship for the money but it's not all good news IMO.
donald_of_tokyo wrote:2: A 57mm gun is great, much better than 114mm for ship’s self defense. But, if looks like without the dedicated FC radar, so guided rounds or even 3P rounds could be FFBNW?
On the surface of it the armament for RN's version of the A140 looks like it's been optimised for recent events in the gulf but how future proof is this configuration?

If the Wildcat isn't flying, where is the offensive capability? Simple answer, there is NONE. Relying 100% on the embarked helicopter for offensive capability seems unwise IMO.

How is this vessel going to support Marines ashore with a 57mm gun?

If it is carrying a Merlin rather than a Wildcat perhaps to support an embarked EMF it has no OTH offensive capability whatsoever. Not smart.

Still no confirmation of any ASW capability at all.

The T31 has achieved so much, especially in terms of value for money but sense must now prevail. These vessels really need the Mk45, a decent hull mounted sonar and at least four AShM. At this stage an extra £50 to £60m per hull would make them a fully credible GP Frigate. By all means build a couple of basic variants to get the ball rolling but as a class they should be at least be on a par with the vessels they are replacing.

We have been discussing for some time now how to categorise the T31. Maybe, a maritime security frigate, a patrol frigate or possibly a long range corvette?

If it is built as described in the STRN article I think we now have the answer....

The T31 is to be the Self Defence Frigate.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

Caribbean wrote:We are talking about these systems coming into service over the next nine years. In the same period we will start to retire the T23s 114mm guns. We will be replacing a bespoke system (with all the exceptional coss that that entails) with two of the more common gun systems available in the West, with the reduction in costs engendered by sharing all future development costs with a world-wide user base. I'm not sure that the cost of maintaining two new logistics chains is going to be significantly greater than the current costs for the 114mm.
That would be true....if we were retiring 4.5...

But its still the main gun on the T45 and will likely remain so for the ships service life. Thats another 20 years.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by bobp »

cockneyjock1974 wrote:Is there any “news” on the SAM fit and will it have mk41 fitted at build?
Very little has been announced yet, but I suspect Sea Ceptor will be the SAM.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote:The T31 has achieved so much, especially in terms of value for money but sense must now prevail. These vessels really need the Mk45, a decent hull mounted sonar and at least four AShM. At this stage an extra £50 to £60m per hull would make them a fully credible GP Frigate. By all means build a couple of basic variants to get the ball rolling but as a class they should be at least be on a par with the vessels they are replacing.
As I have said in the past if type 31 came in with 76mm this would allow a upgrade later to Vulcano rounds which would allow NGFS out to 40km given the Mk-8 has a range of 27km the 31's would be in good shape and this is why I am saying that in A-140 as is we have got really close to a good patrol ship and we need to finish the job and fit a HMS , 76mm and NSM

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote:....if type 31 came in with 76mm this would allow a upgrade later to Vulcano rounds which would allow NGFS out to 40km given the Mk-8 has a range of 27km the 31's would be in good shape
Agreed but I question the need to introduce both the 40mm and 57mm. Much better to standardise all RN Frigates and Destroyers with the Mk45. Removing the massively expensive auto magazine as to be fitted to the T26's would keep costs realistic but it would also increase the manning requirement.

The five T26 GP's were to have the Mk45 and for good reason, effectively anything less is just another cut. I really can't see how a pool of 8 Type 26's are to protect the CSG and conduct TAPS whilst also providing NGFS. Just not enough hulls to guarantee availability.

Adding the 40mm looks to be a good move. Ideal for the RB2's and possibly even the Albions/Bays etc. Three 40mm's and a Mk45 would make the A140 a well balanced platform.
...in A-140 as is we have got really close to a good patrol ship and we need to finish the job and fit a HMS , 76mm and NSM
I would go further and say RN is really close to getting a highly credible GP frigate but £250m was never going to be enough to it properly. Now that it is clear what is available for £250m, add the extras required and provide the cash needed to make it happen. It will be cheaper in the long run.

A total programme cost of £1.75bn for 5 credible GP Frigates is a bargain. Even the FTI is starting to look expensive at that price.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Timmymagic wrote:But its still the main gun on the T45 and will likely remain so for the ships service life. Thats another 20 years.
True, but we will only have 6 systems to support, with another 13 to cannibalise for spares etc. At some point I would think that they may be replaced by a 57mm as "better for it's air defence role". Personally I would have preferred a 76mm/40mm combo, but I guess both 40mm and 57mm systems are now BAE built, so we retain "sovereign capability" etc.

I also tend to agree with the other commentators above that a 127mm would have been preferable, but let's see what the future holds - maybe the second batch will be a big gun variant, rather than something that appears to be more AD focussed.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Caribbean wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:But its still the main gun on the T45 and will likely remain so for the ships service life. Thats another 20 years.
True, but we will only have 6 systems to support, with another 13 to cannibalise for spares etc. At some point I would think that they may be replaced by a 57mm as "better for it's air defence role". Personally I would have preferred a 76mm/40mm combo, but I guess both 40mm and 57mm systems are now BAE built, so we retain "sovereign capability" etc.

I also tend to agree with the other commentators above that a 127mm would have been preferable, but let's see what the future holds - maybe the second batch will be a big gun variant, rather than something that appears to be more AD focussed.
"2nd batch"...optimistic

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