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Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
11%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
122
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
23
5%
A modernised Type 23
22
5%
A Type 26-lite
67
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
5%
5 hulls
66
14%
More than 5 hulls
97
20%
 
Total votes: 483

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RichardIC » 25 Aug 2019, 17:18

Objections to Arrowhead being selected as the successful Type 31e bidder have always fallen into two broad categories:

i) Fundamental opposition to the T31e concept - so let's spend as little as possible and get the crappiest solution
ii) English jobs, even though metal-bashing accounts for a minority of the value of the contract

Both have always struck me as, quite frankly, a bit perverse.

And we also know the final decision will be more about politics and the immediate headlines to be generated than about anything required by the RN.

So there are going to be more twists-and-turns in this. And Babcock must have had to realign their bid. Appledore has shut, H&W was only ever going to going to be a bit-part player with 130 workers on the books, and there's also the associated issues with Ferguson.

I wouldn't be totally surprised if this is hailed as the saviour of Appledore or even H&W.

Nor would I be utterly surprised if it turns out Cammel Laird have flipped sides and find they'now in-line to build major blocks of Arrowhead.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Blackstone » 25 Aug 2019, 18:16

Ron5 wrote:Fergason (sp) went bankrupt because it was over a year late struggling to handle the technical difficulties building a couple of car ferries.

And it's going to build a frigate?

By the way, I couldn't find the newspaper story this morning.

Setting aside a debate over the technical challenges and management of the ferry contract: Babcock is going to assemble the frigate, Ferguson's portion of the work has never been detailed and the general plan has been presented as "flexible workshare." I don't see any reason Ferguson couldn't build hull or deckhouse modules, I've seen no great criticism of their quality and they have an experienced workforce. If shipyards got blacklisted every time there was a bad contract, we'd all be buying all out ships from Korea.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Gabriele » 25 Aug 2019, 18:53

An Arrowhead 140 selection would be very welcome news, as far as i'm concerned. Design-wise, it's a clear winner. The RN ships will still be woefully under-equipped at entry in service, but at least there will be less constraints to their slow growth once in service. More credible customisation for export as well, although i'm not optimistic about the "E" in the name ever coming to anything in any case.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby PapaGolf » 25 Aug 2019, 19:08

Perhaps BAE didn’t want the work and put in the bare minimum effort for their bid to be credible and create a competition (keeping the Govt happy). They have more than enough design and build work with T26 and they have already stated the profit margin on T31 was unattractive for them.

Perhaps this was a done deal a year ago?
If A140 ends up with artisan and CMS1 then I reckon this solution was the favourite all along.

Just a thought.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 25 Aug 2019, 19:13

My objection to Babcock's bid has always been centered around the low probability of them completing the contract on time and money.

Recent events have only lowered those odds. All three of their supply yards have gone bankrupt.

But the MoD have significant history in giving contracts on the basis of votes rather than industrial capability. Taxpayers and the RN have had
to pick up the billions of dollars in contract overruns and corrective actions. Stupid.

Also stupid is to state that the A140 is the "best" design. If Arleigh Burke was in the completion, it would be the "best" design but it's chances of being built for 250 million and delivered by 2023 are about equal to the A140.

Also of note is that the recent decision to remove the cost of material recovered from decommissioned type 23s from the 250 million, seems not to benefit A140 as most of its kit is sourced from outside the UK.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 25 Aug 2019, 19:15

PapaGolf wrote:Perhaps BAE didn’t want the work and put in the bare minimum effort for their bid to be credible and create a competition (keeping the Govt happy). They have more than enough design and build work with T26 and they have already stated the profit margin on T31 was unattractive for them.

Perhaps this was a done deal a year ago?
If A140 ends up with artisan and CMS1 then I reckon this solution was the favourite all along.

Just a thought.


Camel Laird was going to do the work in building the Leanders not Bae.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 25 Aug 2019, 19:51

Gabriele wrote:More credible customisation for export as well, although i'm not optimistic about the "E" in the name ever coming to anything in any case.


With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby clinch » 25 Aug 2019, 19:55

abc123 wrote:
RichardIC wrote:Jeez, this has flushed the English nationalists out.


I would hardly call myself ( at least English ) nationalist, but that's just simple logical thinking. Let's face it, the genie is out of the bottle. 5 years ago, a few percents more and Scotland would be out. If the referendum is tomorrow, I'm pretty sure that Scotland and even the NI would be out. And one day, it will be 51% out. 2020 or 2025 or... I doubt that my kids will in school one day learn about the United Kingdom in current borders and with current constitutnt countries. Also, HMG obviously has no intestinal fortitude to tell the Scots that referendum is one-in-a-generation thing, so they can get the next one say after 2035. So, if things are like that, and they are- the only logical thinking is to prepare for such unfortunate, but non the less realistic case.
That means, strategic defence (industrial) facilities should be based in the only part of the country that will not separate- and that's England. And not only shipyard(s) but Faslane with nuclear deterrent support facilities, MPAs etc.
Simple as that.

That said, I personally prefer Arrowhead design, but there are things much more important than this or that half-arsed frigate design.


Yes. In my view Scottish independence is inevitable - probably following the next vote. I am now pretty sure I will see a united Ireland in my lifetime and I’m in my sixties.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RichardIC » 25 Aug 2019, 21:07

Repulse wrote:With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.


Because the Dutch have freak-all to do with the Arrowhead design.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby dmereifield » 26 Aug 2019, 00:31

RichardIC wrote:
Repulse wrote:With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.


Because the Dutch have freak-all to do with the Arrowhead design.


Why would a prospective customer be interested in the AH140 over the OMT design(s)?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby SD67 » 26 Aug 2019, 06:03

Repulse wrote:
Gabriele wrote:More credible customisation for export as well, although i'm not optimistic about the "E" in the name ever coming to anything in any case.


With the Leander there is a chance for exporting design, support and maintenance skills - for the Arrowhead there is zero chance, why would they not just go straight to the Dutch.

Danish not Dutch and they’re no longer in the shipbuilding business, in reality you need a hot production line to support an export build even if it is on-country the customer will need support from a parent yard. I think Babcock are well placed
Though wouldn’t be surprised if CL get a block

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby SD67 » 26 Aug 2019, 06:18

clinch wrote:
abc123 wrote:
RichardIC wrote:Jeez, this has flushed the English nationalists out.


I would hardly call myself ( at least English ) nationalist, but that's just simple logical thinking. Let's face it, the genie is out of the bottle. 5 years ago, a few percents more and Scotland would be out. If the referendum is tomorrow, I'm pretty sure that Scotland and even the NI would be out. And one day, it will be 51% out. 2020 or 2025 or... I doubt that my kids will in school one day learn about the United Kingdom in current borders and with current constitutnt countries. Also, HMG obviously has no intestinal fortitude to tell the Scots that referendum is one-in-a-generation thing, so they can get the next one say after 2035. So, if things are like that, and they are- the only logical thinking is to prepare for such unfortunate, but non the less realistic case.
That means, strategic defence (industrial) facilities should be based in the only part of the country that will not separate- and that's England. And not only shipyard(s) but Faslane with nuclear deterrent support facilities, MPAs etc.
Simple as that.

That said, I personally prefer Arrowhead design, but there are things much more important than this or that half-arsed frigate design.


Yes. In my view Scottish independence is inevitable - probably following the next vote. I am now pretty sure I will see a united Ireland in my lifetime and I’m in my sixties.


If Scotland leave the Union we’ll have much bigger things to worry about than the completion of T31 - like Faslane, the old subs at Rosyth, dry docking the carriers. Moving frigate assembly to a brown field site - likely Merseyside - shouldn’t be too difficult.
As others have said I don’t think BAE were ever going to win this and Leander was going through the motions. They have enough on their plate especially the elephant in the room which is Successor

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 26 Aug 2019, 06:29

RichardIC wrote:Because the Dutch have freak-all to do with the Arrowhead design.


Apologies my mistake, I typed too quickly without checking - should have been the Danish. :oops:
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 26 Aug 2019, 07:20

SD67 wrote:As others have said I don’t think BAE were ever going to win this and Leander was going through the motions. They have enough on their plate especially the elephant in the room which is Successor

+
Ron5 wrote:of note is that the recent decision to remove the cost of material recovered from decommissioned type 23s from the 250 million, seems not to benefit A140 as most of its kit is sourced from outside the UK.


As for the latter, if the builds end up in a BAE fitting-out yard, to become more British ("to the bootstraps" :) ), then that would leave zero surprises as for the outcome of the twisted process ... yes, I agree that we haven't seen all of it yet.
- would solve the BAE headache (with capacity), while capitalising on their true advantage (and the Gvmnt's sunk investments; TOBA et al)
- and what do the Danes do with their frigates? When OMT became a design bureau, the Navy retained an in-house fitting-out capability

As for the many criticism of the NSS (mainly RE: the 'how'?), the 'what' in it was achieving greater integration across the civvy ;) and military segments, so as to avoid further Death Valleys in the industry (Gvmnt dishing out monies for nothing) and also to create efficiencies to further the "e" ends

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 26 Aug 2019, 07:24

Any actually news about the T-31e, or should discussion about how and where we build the T-31e be in the Escorts thread? Maybe with the very slow release of information about both the T-26 and T-31e, these respective threads should become open to general discussion and a Escorts (News only) thread started with the existing Escorts thread become one for general discussion on the Royal Navy's future warships. Just a thought.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 26 Aug 2019, 09:04

Lord Jim, agree on your suggestion, the problem I see is that when someone posts news it then turns into a debate on the news which then depending on your insider knowledge becomes quickly to some fantasy discussions. Having clearer guidelines and mods actively managing the News thread deleting posts not linked to new or relevant news would help serve a wider audience.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 30 Aug 2019, 11:24

From https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-qu ... irst-time/

...Whilst onboard, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, .... When asked about the timeline of the Type 31 programme she described how she had recently met the project team and hoped to have an announcement soon and that “£250 million per ship was still the programme cost”...

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 30 Aug 2019, 14:49

Repulse wrote:Lord Jim, agree on your suggestion, the problem I see is that when someone posts news it then turns into a debate on the news which then depending on your insider knowledge becomes quickly to some fantasy discussions. Having clearer guidelines and mods actively managing the News thread deleting posts not linked to new or relevant news would help serve a wider audience.


Couldn't agree more. Though I don't know how many mods we have, and I'm sure they don't have the time to continuously monitor said threads. How many times do people have to be told this is a news only thread. A little self policimg would be a major help, surely it's not that difficult to stick to the rules.

It appears to me that some folk just like to see their opinions on the screen, whether or not they are relevant to the thread.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 05 Sep 2019, 07:47

Gabriele wrote:An Arrowhead 140 selection would be very welcome news, as far as i'm concerned


It is likely the best of the bunch, but it's in poor company so that's no great endorsement.

At the end of the day its still not as good as the ship it replaces, with the RN having to accept a capability climb down.
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 05 Sep 2019, 09:17

Well we nearly made it week but it seems speculation and personal opinion strikes again. :thumbdown:

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 05 Sep 2019, 10:49

shark bait wrote:
At the end of the day its still not as good as the ship it replaces, with the RN having to accept a capability climb down.


Why not?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 05 Sep 2019, 13:56

your on the wrong thread, you should be on current and future escorts as this is 'news only'

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Sep 2019, 15:08

I knew that there was fresh money for the constabulary, but to be that quick , onto these pages :lol:

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RichardIC » 10 Sep 2019, 07:46

They have names, we just don’t know what they are. But Burslem, home of Port Vale FC, seems unlikely.

Type 31 Frigates
Ruth Smeeth: [284468]
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will make an assessment of the potential merits of naming one of the future Type 31 frigates after Burslem, the mother town of the potteries.

Anne-Marie Trevelyan:
The names of the Type 31 Frigates have already been proposed by the Navy Board and are awaiting final approval. Following approval, the names will be announced at appropriate opportunities in the future.
I have asked the Navy Board's Ships' Names and Badges Committee to note the proposal for the name 'Burslem' to be considered for a ship or submarine in the future.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 10 Sep 2019, 10:38

Potteries? WTF? :o
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…


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