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Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
11%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
118
26%
An LCS-like modular ship
20
4%
A modernised Type 23
21
5%
A Type 26-lite
65
14%
Less than 5 hulls
21
5%
5 hulls
63
14%
More than 5 hulls
88
19%
 
Total votes: 460

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Scimitar54 » 15 Jun 2019, 12:57

Tempest414 wrote
It now looks like Leander will now get 24 CAMM but if the RN wanted more swap out the two front tubs for two 3 cell EXLS giving the ship 36 CAMM.


Now maybe your maths are different from mine, however 24 (-2) = 22. 2 x 3 cell EXLS (I presume that you intend that they be "Quad Packed") = 24. So we have 22 + 24 = giving the ship a total capacity of 46 x CAMM. Very useful indeed.

Simon82
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Simon82 » 15 Jun 2019, 13:01

Pseudo wrote:
SKB wrote:Some new T31e concepts from BAE: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/bae-sy ... e-concept/

Btw. No anchor?

It uses a revolutionary braking mechanism based around a series of extending, tensile "air brakes" constructed of a durable, environmentally-friendly fabric material, which also doubles as an auxiliary propulsion system that harnesses the very latest in renewable energy technology. :)


I think Project SAIL was abandoned due to the high manpower requirements and the high cost of retraining BAE propulsion engineers in needle-craft.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 15 Jun 2019, 15:56

whitelancer wrote:Looks nice enough but not much in the way of offensive capability.
I agree some of the 5 T31e shall better be equipped with NSM. But, that will be enough.

With 24 CAMM, T31 can already contribute to escorting CVTF or RFA fleet. In this case, T31 do not need any offensive capability. If deployed in singleton, they are not fighting a full war, but confronting a quasi-war in many cases. Thus, 99% of their task is better handled with "sniper" type weapon. Wildcat with SeaVenom, or a few NSMs is good enough.
Tempest414 wrote:Looking at the images above is the hangar taller than before maybe Merlin capable ?
l also though the same, but at least the hangar entrance looks similar. Rather, the funnel become larger, which may indicate the length of the hangar be elongated.

On the other hand, I think a "Merlin capable hangar" is also only in the regime of "better to have". When escorting CVTF, no need. CV herself carries 13-14 of it. RFA logistic fleet has Merlin capable hangar (just T31e "better to have"). For export, no user needs Merlin capable hangar (almost zero needs).

If there are any money to add any offensive weapons or Merlin capable hangar, I would rather insist ExLS to replace the mushrooms. 6-cells of ExLS for 24 CAMM is enough. But, the huge "future growth margin" it shows is of great importance for export market, as well as RN future improvement plan.

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Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 15 Jun 2019, 16:12

Given the increase in tension in the Gulf, would people say that a T31 built at the base RFI standard would be capable of escorting Tankers in such an environment?
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 15 Jun 2019, 16:29

Repulse wrote:Given the increase in tension in the Gulf, would people say that a T31 built at the base RFI standard would be capable of escorting Tankers in such an environment?

Probably. CAMM seems to be a highly capable system, so that would likely take care of any missile/ air attack threat (which would be highly unlikely as it would provide incontrovertible evidence that Iran was behind the attacks). A 57mm, plus the 30mm and tertiary guns seem designed to cope with FACs (the most likely form of attack) and other small naval craft, as does the Wildcat. No doubt they will also carry a Marine detachment, who will be able to provide additional firepower, if needed. Phalanx would be a nice addition, though the threat level is possibly not yet severe enough to make it a necessity
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 15 Jun 2019, 17:09

Scimitar54 wrote:Now maybe your maths are different from mine, however 24 (-2) = 22. 2 x 3 cell EXLS (I presume that you intend that they be "Quad Packed") = 24. So we have 22 + 24 = giving the ship a total capacity of 46 x CAMM. Very useful indeed.


the New Leander images seem to show 24 CAMM 6 in each tub at the front = 12 and 12 on top of the mission bay so

24 - 12 from the tubs = 12
4 x 3 cell EXLS = 12 x 2 = 24
12 + 24 = 36 Last time I looked

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Scimitar54 » 15 Jun 2019, 18:37

Tubs? With the oft-occurring mid-spelling on here (predictive text?), I had thought that you were referring to "tubes". Just goes to show that one must be clear in what one is saying (or in this case writing). :idea:

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Jensy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Jensy » 16 Jun 2019, 16:07

Unlikely to have much impact on the Type 31 project but it seems interesting that Babcock is clearly in the cross-hairs of smaller, leaner firms, that want it for its service providers, if not engineering capability:

The Times: Serco’s £4bn swoop on Babcock

Serco is understood to have returned with a more detailed proposal for a nil-premium, all-share merger in January. It envisaged creating a defence services behemoth by merging Babcock’s expertise in maintaining the navy’s nuclear submarine fleet with Serco’s work at the Atomic Weapons Establishment in Berkshire. The enlarged group would have been chaired by Gardner and run by Rupert Soames, Serco’s chief executive. Babcock’s board rejected the proposal, which would have led to the departure of chief executive Archie Bethel and allowed Turner to retire with a big deal.

Serco’s ambitions for a merger of the FTSE 250 rivals appear to have receded for the time being. Turner is set to leave Babcock this week after 11 years as chairman, having been urged to stand down by Invesco, Babcock’s biggest investor. He is being replaced by Ruth Cairnie, a former Shell executive who sits on the board of Rolls-Royce. She is expected to scythe through Babcock’s management. Turner said last month that he was “really upset about leaving Babcock” but realised it “was wrong for me to try and carry on”.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sercos-4bn-swoop-on-babcock-xn8gmw93p = (£)

I can't help but feel that Babcock has been rather lost as a company for a while, unsure what their core business is. Which is a shame as their reputation in Land Systems and low-cost shipbuilding was rather impressive.

Losing Appledore seems to fit into this downward trend and if CL/BAE win the Type 31 contract I think their shipbuilding side might be finished.

Jensy

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 17 Jun 2019, 07:49

Repulse wrote:Given the increase in tension in the Gulf, would people say that a T31 built at the base RFI standard would be capable of escorting Tankers in such an environment?

This is asking the Navy to deter a state actor, if the UK is placing this demand on it's personnel the MOD should equip them properly, i.e. not a patrol vessel.
@LandSharkUK

Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tempest414 » 17 Jun 2019, 09:29

Lets say the type 31 is a Leander and it is fitted with

Artsain radar
BAE / CMS
1 x 57mm with 3P ammo ( capable of engaging air and surface targets at 8km
2 x 40mm with 3P ammo ( capable of engaging air and surface targets at 7km
24 x CAMM ( capable of giving an unbrella of air cover up to 1000km2 around the ship )
1 x Wildcat with LMM
4 x ORC's in the mission bay

Would this ship not be as capable of looking after its self and tankers as a type 23 GP.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 17 Jun 2019, 12:14

The 3P ammo is very good but its use does involve having to use to more expensive versions of the respective 57mm and 40mm mounts. With every penny an endangered animal when it comes to the T-31e programme this may be a luxury that cannot be afforded. In addition whilst I can see the reason for wanting to use 40mm weapons instead of 25mm or similar again the cost question arises. I think if we just got the BAe 57mm we would be doing well and if we can afford the high end version able to use 3P ammo even better, but whereas the former could be a possibility, the latter definitely fits into the nice to have category. AS for the secondary weapons, I am not sure if the T)31e will even have RWS for them, but more likely to use manually operated hand me downs instead.

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Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 17 Jun 2019, 13:14

shark bait wrote:
Repulse wrote:Given the increase in tension in the Gulf, would people say that a T31 built at the base RFI standard would be capable of escorting Tankers in such an environment?

This is asking the Navy to deter a state actor, if the UK is placing this demand on it's personnel the MOD should equip them properly, i.e. not a patrol vessel.


It is, and the “gold plated” escort solution in this scenario would be a T26 I assume. Question is, if this isn’t the reason for having globally deployed Frigates, what is? Otherwise, use the B2 Rivers and keep them out of harms way when shit like this blows up and buy more T26s. It feels though this is the role the RN was expecting a T31 to do (it’s a low level/proxy conflict and we aren’t expecting SSMs/TLAMs to go flying anytime soon) so what is missing?
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 Jun 2019, 13:37

shark bait wrote:
Repulse wrote:Given the increase in tension in the Gulf, would people say that a T31 built at the base RFI standard would be capable of escorting Tankers in such an environment?

This is asking the Navy to deter a state actor, if the UK is placing this demand on it's personnel the MOD should equip them properly, i.e. not a patrol vessel.
Luckily, if the T31e is armed with a 57mm 3P (*1) and 24 CAMM, it is equipped enough to cover this task. Compared, a T26 with 48 CAMM (just only twice as many) (*2), with the same Artisan 3D radar, has no big merit against T31e, if equipped as I listed.

*1: In 57mm case, 3P ammo is standard, as I understand?

*2: 5inch gun and Mk.41 VLS both has almost nothing to do against fast-boat or UAVs, completely pointless they are. Only after the open war takes place, T26 shows merit against T31e.

But, as T26 is 3-4 times expensive than T31e, using a T26 for years against cheap boats itself is already "Iranian win". We saw four decades of "not open war" against Iran. As a local country, Iran's best performance is obtained when in "quasi war" not open war. I cannot see why they abandon their figure of merit.

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 17 Jun 2019, 14:35

What is so difficult to understand about " News Only " :thumbdown:

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 17 Jun 2019, 16:51

As it is pretty obvious that we cannot restrict certain threads to news only as in the T-31e and T-26, and as these appear only in the Naval category, maybe we should make these simply thread to discuss specific platforms like happens in the Army category where both news and discussion takes place regarding individual platforms. Otherwise having news only threads for the MIV/Boxer and Challenger 2 should be started and the same for the F-35 and others in the RAF category should be looked into.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 18 Jun 2019, 10:27

Sorry to appear churlish but I disagree. When I see new posts on a "News Only " thread then as a pragmatist that is what I am expecting to see.

We have a perfectly good general discussions thread for current and future escorts, where people can speculate and give their personal opinions. Surely it's not to much to ask for a little self policing. Although perhaps I am tilting at windmills, as even the mod is fighting a losing battle on this.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 18 Jun 2019, 11:06

Lord Jim wrote:As it is pretty obvious that we cannot restrict certain threads to news only as in the T-31e and T-26, and as these appear only in the Naval category, maybe we should make these simply thread to discuss specific platforms like happens in the Army category where both news and discussion takes place regarding individual platforms. Otherwise having news only threads for the MIV/Boxer and Challenger 2 should be started and the same for the F-35 and others in the RAF category should be looked into.

The reason these threads are news only is because the forum population made it pretty clear that any discussion of ships turns into a 10+ page discussion on possibly loadouts and ideas and fleet makeup outside the platform, making it very difficult for people who use this forum for news to locate said news.

We have the current escorts thread for that sort of ongoing chatter now, with these ones kept to limited discussion surrounding recent updates.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby NickC » 18 Jun 2019, 12:31

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
*1: In 57mm case, 3P ammo is standard, as I understand?



Think posted before L3 won the USN contract for 57mm Advanced Low-Cost Munitions Ordnance round, ALaMO :crazy: , beating off the BAE ORKA developed from the BAE 3P round.

ALaMO costing ~50% more than standard non-guided round, but kill taking fewer rounds, mention of two ALaMO used compared up to fifteen standard rounds required to take out Iranian boghammars which are a 'bunch of styrofoam'.

The L3 ALaMO round gives guidance capability to take out gun errors to compensate even at max range of Mk 110 gun which is only 5.4nm/10km and with claimed accuracy of inches, L3 not divulging design tech used, they did say their ALaMO round does not use fins or vanes as the BAE ORKA (as does the Dart/Vulcano and Madfires)

USN buying the BAE 3P for its AA capability?, but DARPA funding R&D, not the USN, for the Multi-Azimuth Defense Fast Intercept Round Engagement System, MAD-FIRES :crazy: 57mm round, Raytheon awarded update to their contract April 2018, cumulatively worth $51M, 10% Raufoss of Norway, uses a rocket motor, so maybe range 8km which understand what Leonardo claim with their 76mm Dart/Vulcan round?

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 18 Jun 2019, 14:24

The expression sling a deaf'un springs to mind here.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 27 Jun 2019, 13:52

Well according to the media, the bids are in for the T-31e, but no information yet on what they entail.

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 27 Jun 2019, 14:37

Do you have a link for the media source


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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Dahedd » 28 Jun 2019, 14:28

What are Atlas Electronik putting forward as their offering? Or did I misread that & they're in with Babcock?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 28 Jun 2019, 16:43

HMS Tirpitz

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Halidon » 28 Jun 2019, 22:27

Dahedd wrote:What are Atlas Electronik putting forward as their offering? Or did I misread that & they're in with Babcock?

MEKO A-200 Variant.


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