Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote: I suspect even the nationalists would be voting to stay...problem is the rest of the UK when they find out might be wanting them to go..
If they only marched into the Westminster Palace once, voted, and be gone
- Brexit Gordion's Knot solved; and them gone before anyone even realised what just happened :D
Poiuytrewq wrote:Effectively HMG is trying to use a Corvette budget to build a Frigate.
Yes, India did that to get enough ASW (corvettes, with specialised weaponry) with enough of endurance to "do carrier duty" - meaning a frigate hull
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote: Effectively HMG is trying to use a Corvette budget to build a Frigate.
Yes, India did that to get enough ASW (corvettes, with specialised weaponry) with enough of endurance to "do carrier duty" - meaning a frigate hull
The ASW Corvette role would be perfect for a 105m Leander intended for non blue water ASW but the overlap with a Venari type vessel is obvious.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: non blue water ASW but the overlap with a Venari type vessel is obvious
Yep, but CSGs do not veer into non-blue waters that often
- and with T31s we are seeking 'bods' in numbers
- Venari(s) the opposite: specialists (albeit cheaper per piece)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

RetroSicotte wrote:....when looking at what constitutes a light frigate in today's world....FFG(X)
Unless it's a T26 :D

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Halidon
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Halidon »

It's interesting that they've updated their mast, and now the Combat Systems page basically just says "hey we'll put whatever radar you won on it, but that NS100 sure is cool." Definitely keeping their options open.
Poiuytrewq wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:....when looking at what constitutes a light frigate in today's world....FFG(X)
Unless it's a T26 :D
Yeah, at the end of the process it's possible "light" may be inappropriate when it comes to FFG(X).

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Halidon wrote:It's interesting that they've updated their mast, and now the Combat Systems page basically just says "hey we'll put whatever radar you won on it, but that NS100 sure is cool." Definitely keeping their options open.
Poiuytrewq wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:....when looking at what constitutes a light frigate in today's world....FFG(X)
Unless it's a T26 :D
Yeah, at the end of the process it's possible "light" may be inappropriate when it comes to FFG(X).
Personally I've not heard FFG(X) called a "light" frigate. OTH I've heard it called a "super frigate". Neither description is very useful.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

dmereifield wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:so I think we are starting to see what the RN would like from T31 both A140 & Leander are talking about a Mk-8 gun , 12 to 24 CAMM , 2 x 30mm
If it ends up with a mk8 gun, 24 CAMM, 2 x 30mm, HMS, some reasonable level of noise reduction (as both Leander & AH140 seem to indicate), FTR CIWS, FTR box launched ASM and damage control in line with that of typical UK frigates/destroyers, wouldn't that be a bargain for £250 million?

All of that can be ported over from T23s, and the CIWS and ASMs can be added as and when from the pools available.

Would that not be a real light frigate, as opposed to a patrol frigate?
I've not read an answer to this question yet other than it doesn't cost enough. Do we not know?

Going from memory, BMT felt the dividing line between the two was the light frigate would be capable of contributions in high threat environments while the "patrol" frigate would not be capable of much beyond constabulary tasks. Loosey goosey definitions but I think we have a decent feel on the difference. Enough to provide a better answer.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:Personally I've not heard FFG(X) called a "light" frigate. OTH I've heard it called a "super frigate". Neither description is very useful.
Quite agreed, but both are "over" an LCS... which are not corvettes!
Ron5 wrote:the dividing line between the two was the light frigate would be capable of contributions in high threat environments while the "patrol" frigate would not be capable of much beyond constabulary tasks.
Yes, and again the "floor" is an OPV. Only constabulary tasks
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

Is it just me or has the Arrowhead 140 got a very low chance of winning? I thought one of the main purposes of the T31 project ( besides keeping up the numbers of the RN on paper! ) was to develop a military ship building capacity in England...just incase the Scotts went independent ( hope not ! ) & stop Bae from having a monopoly...

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

And persuade BAE to adopt a more favourable (to HMG) pricing for it's Warships, in view of the removal of what, in effect has become a monopoly. Competition does not drive prices up. If competition is harnessed properly, all who deserve to, should benefit.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

clinch wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Didn't think we'd ever see that site re-emerge. I'm amazed. Thanks for posting Jensy.

LMM is of course a Thales product, hence the inclusion.

Mk 8 is of course now a Babcocks product, hence the inclusion.

The build map seems a tad jaundiced now, the "all over UK" build strategy comes down to build in Northern Ireland and Scotland only. Sir John Parkers confident assertion that every big metal box builder would be frothing at the mouth for part of the action has totally failed.
How long will Scotland and Northern Ireland be in the UK after Brexit?
For as long as they wish to. Which I hope and expect, even despite Brexit issues, will be a very long time indeed

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

We worry about building ships in Scotland but are quite happy to base half the fastjet fleet there, the entire p8 fleet and its support network not to mention the entire submarine fleet.

If the uk desolves the last thing defence will need to worry about is where ships are built.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

SW1 wrote:If the uk desolves
The Scots gNats must be looking at the brexit shenanigans with a degree of nervousness - if it takes this long to disengage after only 40 years in the union with the EU, how long will it take to dissolve a 300-year old union?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Ebro
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ebro »

If I remember correctly, about 18 months according to the published white paper
Now that is much better than Tresames shambles
Can’t come fast enough tbf

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Ebro wrote:about 18 months according to the published white paper
IIRC, it was alleged that Brexit would be the "easiest deal ever". Plans often don't survive an encounter with reality
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote: Plans often don't survive an encounter with reality
Especially if the assumptions underpinning a 'plan' are made up ;)

The reader may have made an instant connection to Brexit "plan"
- but I was actually talking about how we pay for the NI/ Scotland (raised abovethread) to stay in the Union: "Northern Ireland and Scotland attracted the highest [public] expenditure per head, at £14,020 and £13,050 respectively, with the lowest expenditure per person in the south-east at £10,580"

Oil price slump saw a structural deficit of 9.5% arise in Scotland - compare with Italy that has been at loggerheads with the EU whether they can be over the three % limit by 0.4 or 0.04 percentage points
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Bit far off track lads. Back to news only. :)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote:We worry about building ships in Scotland but are quite happy to base half the fastjet fleet there, the entire p8 fleet and its support network not to mention the entire submarine fleet.

Moving the the Fast jet fleet out of Lossi is a matter of weeks 1 unit back to Coningsby and 2 into Leeming as for the P-8s Temp base at Waddo as for entire Sub force being based in Scotland the Trafalger's are base at Devonport

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

RetroSicotte wrote:Bit far off track lads. Back to news only.
Sorry hit the button before reading this

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Tempest414 wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:Bit far off track lads. Back to news only.
Sorry hit the button before reading this
S'all good.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

serge750 wrote:Is it just me or has the Arrowhead 140 got a very low chance of winning? I thought one of the main purposes of the T31 project ( besides keeping up the numbers of the RN on paper! ) was to develop a military ship building capacity in England...just incase the Scotts went independent ( hope not ! ) & stop Bae from having a monopoly...
You would think so but the dislike of Bae runs so strong within the MoD and Treasury.

I just can't get my head around the idea that anyone can believe that Babcocks can develop and build a T140 for the same price as Cammel Laird can build a Leander with pretty much the same level of kit. I just don't see how. And in locations that have zero experience in designing and building ships vs CL which has ships rolling of the slips as we speak.

Shakes my head.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Scimitar54 wrote:And persuade BAE to adopt a more favourable (to HMG) pricing for it's Warships, in view of the removal of what, in effect has become a monopoly. Competition does not drive prices up. If competition is harnessed properly, all who deserve to, should benefit.
I really don't see how that plays out over time. Do you think if Babcocks wins the T31 contract, they could bid against Bae for the next batch of T26 or for the T45 successor or for more Astutes?

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

No, because the T26 is a BAE Product. Proper solution is for base design to come from within the MOD (Navy) who should be designing their own ships and seek competitive tendering from interested companies/shipyards for the ship building. The fact is that this has been abandoned over time, such that now, industry designs the ships and the MODis just the client (and therefore becomes hostage to the company that has a monopoly over design and build), in this case BAE. Some people may argue that there are insufficient orders for more than one company/shipyard to be viable. They are correct ...... There are insufficient ships being ordered and an insufficient number of naval personnel to operate them. The solution is firstly to have the correct sized fleet. The problems that may arise from this will be the only ones that really needed solving all along.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Scimitar54 wrote:MODis just the client (and therefore becomes hostage to the company that has a monopoly over design and build),
:lolno:
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Scimitar54 wrote:MOD (Navy) who should be designing their own ships
shark bait wrote:monopoly over design and build
The efforts to regain some control over the initial design have been running for half a decade, but not much have been heard (attributed to? NDP):

"

The UK Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) naval design partnering (NDP) has relocated to a new Babcock office in Bristol, which houses submarine and surface ship NDP teams [and Babcock’s energy and marine technology (E&MT) team].

Located in Bristol Business Park near the MoD Abbey Wood site, Babcock House can accommodate 64 NDP staff"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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