Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Aethulwulf
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Aethulwulf »

All 13 Type 23s are getting Artisan and CAMM, but only 11 are getting an upgrade in power generation (HMS Argyll and HMS Lancaster are the two missing out).

The fitting of Artisan started in advance of the fitting of CAMM. In Jan 2017 it was reported that, 11 of the 13 had been fitted with Artisan. I suspect that by now all 13 have Artisan.

19 Artisan sets were ordered and delivered. 13 for Type 23s, 1 each for QE, PoW, Albion, Bulwark and Ocean, plus one reference shore set. (Ocean's Artisan was sold to Brazil with the ship.)

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

OK , so Ive just spent part of the bank holiday ( sad I know!) trying to decipher CL's new site and the team Leander bid. Do we now think they are the only game in town? Since the MoD made their somewhat surprising announcement to suspend the whole thing and then the re-start happened Babcock seem to be running on silent (if not totally sunk ?) whilst CL's comms team have been on constant send.

Have to admit that i was not initially a fan, and still have reservations, size being one, I am pretty impressed with the new site and especially the way it is UK centric and appears first and foremost to be focused on the RN requirement with export potential taking second place. I contrast Babcock's Arrowhead 140 site was very non specific as to what systems they were proposing for the RN vessel and seemed very much focused on export first.

I still very much favour the Arrowhead 140, and hope it comes back from the dead, however as Donald san has stated if it hasn't happened within three weeks it probably never will. Why do I favour Arrowhead ? well aside from the fact that it is based on a well proven in-service Frigate that was knocked out very cheap which proves it can be done, the fact that it had a Merlin size hangar, the speed to keep up with a QE task force and could carry a decent number of CAMM swung it for me . Also its sheer size alone made it that much more survivable, as well as giving it greater potential for a mid-life upgrade and future growth.
LEANDER2.jpg
If as some believe this image conveys the RN specific version of T31, then with a Mk 8 gun, Artisan, Phalanx and CAMM as well as Harpoon and with the exception of Phalanx all ported over from the Type 23, then it could well be that they may be able to churn out a potent little warship, and even better that a worthy successor to the Type 23 and indeed the original Leander might still be found. Didn't Cammell Laird build some after all?

For my money however it is still too small and a tad too slow. Add five meters fore and aft and two meters in the beam, with perhaps an extra deck, thus allowing for a Merlin capable hangar and more space forward for CAMM and it would probably get my vote. :-)
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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

where did the image of a Leander with a 4.5 inch gun come from is it CL/ BAE if so that is that must be the RN saying what it wants

Repulse
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

The more I see what is being proposed the more depressing it gets...

I understand the view that the RN cannot realistically support more than one Task Group independently given 6 T45s & 8 T26s, but the T31 will do nothing to address this and perhaps that’s ok. With each CVF with 2 T45s & 2 T26s, plus one T26 always EoS then the RN will still be globally relevant.

What could be an alternative to the T31 would be a couple of (Mistral style) Sea Control Carriers capable of independent Ops (reuse Artisan and CAMM for the GP T23s, plus a couple of VTOL spots for small scale F35B operations), plus taking up the option to upgrade 8 Mk1 Merlins to Mk2 standard. These could also replace Argus and the Albions in secondary Amphibious Assault/HADR roles.

Yes the fleet just got smaller, but it’s war fighting capability would go up significantly.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

Tempest414 wrote:where did the image of a Leander with a 4.5 inch gun come from is it CL/ BAE if so that is that must be the RN saying what it wants


I took it straight from CL/BAE's new web site, http://www.leanderfrigate.com/design/gallery , second image in. Its even clearer from the new CGI on the main page. I tried to take a screen shot but my IT skills are crap, perhaps someone on here whose are better might try to have a go.

Its got to be pitched at the RN as who else would be interested and CL/BAE must be confident that the guns will be made available and at the right price or why would they bother methinks? The RN will be running on the MK 8 4.5 inch alongside the 5 inch MK 45 for many a year yet in any case. At least until 2035 when the last of the Type 23's leave the fleet and probably until the mid 2040's when the Type 45's eventually go.

We often forget that with the depressingly low build schedule of the Type 26 all five of the (hopefully) first batch of the Type 31 will be in service and operating alongside ASW Type 23's for quiet a few years so logistically it would make a lot of sense that they carry the same gun? Here's the link to the CGI;

http://www.leanderfrigate.com/

Opinion3
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Opinion3 »

Leander doesn't look like it would survive a real war so what is the point? If this is news it is depressing ...

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

Define ' real war' ?? Can't believe there's me defending Leander..lol!

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Opinion3 wrote:Leander doesn't look like it would survive a real war so what is the point? If this is news it is depressing ...
Pongoglo wrote:Define ' real war' ?? Can't believe there's me defending Leander..lol!
Although I am not the moderator here, I'm afraid we shall move to escort thread? Distributing the same discussion in many thread is not good for ourselves. :D

Brasil
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Brasil »

Aethulwulf wrote: 19 Artisan sets were ordered and delivered. 13 for Type 23s, 1 each for QE, PoW, Albion, Bulwark and Ocean, plus one reference shore set. (Ocean's Artisan was sold to Brazil with the ship.)
The sale of Artisan to Brazil may be strategic. The Type 31 is being offered in the contest of the new Brazilian small frigates, with Artisan.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

Pongoglo wrote:the new CGI on the main page. I tried to take a screen shot but my IT skills are crap, perhaps someone on here whose are better might try to have a go.

Its got to be pitched at the RN as who else would be interested and CL/BAE must be confident that the guns will be made available and at the right price or why would they bother methinks? The RN will be running on the MK 8 4.5 inch alongside the 5 inch MK 45 for many a year yet in any case. At least until 2035 when the last of the Type 23's leave the fleet and probably until the mid 2040's when the Type 45's eventually go.
That image makes a great deal of sense. New 5 inch guns, even without the T26 expensive automated magazine, would blow the budget so why not re-use the Mk.8's. It's still perfectly good for NGS and is arguably better for anti air work than US 5 inch mounts (the Oto lightweight mount is probably better). Brazil uses them as well...

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

Yeah and both the Oto 76 and Bofors 57 whilst clearly better at AAW/AASM are crap at NGS. Keep the MK 8 for NGS at which it is excellent and for everything else rely on Phalanx and CAMM.

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

And whilst you are at it port over the Harpoon mounts from the T23's, also as the image depicts. This at least until we grasp the inevitable and buy NSM. With a Mk8 gun, CAMM, Phalanx and Harpoon, plus 30mm etc and possibly canister launched Brimstone too, we would have a great little 'street fighter' for littoral work, arguably better if slower than the US LCS. As long as enough CAMM are provisioned (is MORE than 12 !) in a general war scenario she would also be good enough to do 'goalkeeper' tasks for QEC, thus freeing up T26 alias 'Global Combat Ship ' as intended for more freelance and ambitious tasks.

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

Still wish she were 1,000 tons heavier, stretched by 10 metres and plus one deck, and with a Merlin hanger too. Leander 130 or 127 would get my vote. Oh, funny old thing, I've just described a T23! :-)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

Posts on this thread are required to be news not opinions Im not criticising the quality of the posts but suggest they may be better directed to future escorts etc.

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Pongoglo wrote:Keep the MK 8 for NGS at which it is excellent
That's a bit of a stretch, the bigger guns with guided multiple round simultaneous impact are excellent. The MK 8 is a bit of a relic that will become increasingly unusable.
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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Timmymagic wrote:why not re-use the Mk.8's. It's still perfectly good for NGS
shark bait wrote:That's a bit of a stretch, the bigger guns with guided multiple round simultaneous impact are excellent. The MK 8 is a bit of a relic that will become increasingly unusable.
Absolutely spot on. The Mk8 isn't excellent for NGS once other navies are fielding precision guided rounds with a range of 60 miles plus.

Mk8 is a 1960s legacy system the manufacturer isn't interested in supporting anymore and new ammunition isn't being developed for. It needs to go.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

RichardIC wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:why not re-use the Mk.8's. It's still perfectly good for NGS
shark bait wrote:That's a bit of a stretch, the bigger guns with guided multiple round simultaneous impact are excellent. The MK 8 is a bit of a relic that will become increasingly unusable.
Absolutely spot on. The Mk8 isn't excellent for NGS once other navies are fielding precision guided rounds with a range of 60 miles plus.

Mk8 is a 1960s legacy system the manufacturer isn't interested in supporting anymore and new ammunition isn't being developed for. It needs to go.
Ok, but being practical in the context of an isolated T31 programme aimed at keeping procurement and running costs low (£250 million), which is the the most realistic way of achieving this:

1) use GFE (4.5") that will remain commonality in service with the RN (T45, T23)

2) go with the 5" to have commonality with the T26 but blow the T31 budget (and/or sacrifice a large proportion of other kit)

3) introduce a new gun type which will include setting up new training, servicing, munitions purchases etc from within the T31 budget

Clive F
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Clive F »

I would go 57 or 76mm for everything except T26.
T26 can do NGS on the rare occasion it is required, and the others would find the smaller caliber better for small/ fast craft and anti Air.
If we used 57mm could that go on everything with a gun bigger than 30mm? or bigger than 20mm Phalanx. ie standardize on 12.7+20+57+155mm?.

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

4) or 30mm up front?
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

RichardIC wrote:Absolutely spot on. The Mk8 isn't excellent for NGS once other navies are fielding precision guided rounds with a range of 60 miles plus.

Mk8 is a 1960s legacy system the manufacturer isn't interested in supporting anymore and new ammunition isn't being developed for. It needs to go.
RichardIC wrote:
It's perfectly good for NGS. Far more so than a smaller calibre like 76mm (I'm totally discounting 57mm). Those long ranged precision guided rounds may get fielded, but until they are the 4.5 inch is perfectly acceptable, its better for AA work as well (and that matters with more and more drones) and for anti-FIAC work due to its higher ROF. Unlike 57mm and 76mm its also capable of stopping a ship...

As to long range guided munitions for medium calibre guns, for the foreseeable these will be rare as hens teeth. Vulcano or other isn't going to be turning up in RN service for at least 10 years. But the 4.5 inch could be adapted to a cheaper, slightly less accurate guided round very easily. The M1156 PGK could be very easily adapted to 4.5inch if we so wished (as it could for 105mm as well).

I suspect within the T31 budget it will be re-used 4.5 inch or nothing. Thats better than 76mm or 57mm in my book, which if you've got DS30, Phalanx and Sea Ceptor are utterly unnecessary for close in work and outclassed by 4.5 inch for any heavier or at range work required.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

dmereifield wrote:Ok, but being practical in the context of an isolated T31 programme aimed at keeping procurement and running costs low (£250 million), which is the the most realistic way of achieving this:

1) use GFE (4.5") that will remain commonality in service with the RN (T45, T23)

2) go with the 5" to have commonality with the T26 but blow the T31 budget (and/or sacrifice a large proportion of other kit)

3) introduce a new gun type which will include setting up new training, servicing, munitions purchases etc from within the T31 budget
I bet (3) is the cheapest, if RN shares the logistic chain with Canada and USN (57mm) or France, Italy, Irish Navy, Ntherlands navy, and many many NATO allies (76mm). Logistic part will be actually more expensive even with this "share", but man-power to maintain a giant 4.5inch turret will overkill the difference, I think.

Also in case of Leander, 76mm guns already on work (and replacing it with 57mm gun is easy), but mounting 4.5inch gun will need more re-design cost, which must be included in the discussion here. From the same reason, even if it has 4.5inch gun, the magazine/arsenal will be small.

Not attractive, I think.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Timmymagic wrote:... 4.5 inch is perfectly acceptable, its better for AA work as well (and that matters with more and more drones) and for anti-FIAC work due to its higher ROF.
Is this true?

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Is this true?
Timmymagic wrote:its better for AA work as well
I believe, and I can't remember where I read it, that the RN no longer has stocks of AA ammo for the 4.5. If that's the case then, no, not really.

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

The anti air argument pops ups every now and then, I suspect because it's on the Wikipedia page, and it's total guff. I also suspect its not been practices for decades because its so ineffective.
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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Timmymagic wrote:But the 4.5 inch could be adapted to a cheaper, slightly less accurate guided round very easily.
shark bait wrote:The anti air argument pops ups every now and then, I suspect because it's on the Wikipedia page, and it's total guff. I also suspect its not been practices for decades because its so ineffective.
The future is guided rounds for anti-air too.

And "slightly less accurate" isn't going to cut it politically in the future if it results in civilians or our own ground forces being slightly less alive. How many non-precision weapons have the RAF used in recent campaigns?

Sorry, totally off topic now. And this is the News thread.

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