Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[RetroSicotte]

Top issue is lack of resource. Any military procurement cannot be free from resource. Call for more resource is one thing, analyzing "what a Leander can do" is another.

That's an entirely separate thing. "Lessons being learned" brought the Navy a ship design that actually is (mostly) fit for purpose. Leander is not, not by the Royal Navy's standards and requirements. They identified the need for 13 or more vessels in the caliber of Type 26. Now they are being forced to do a hard, and potentially extremely dangerous job with budget bin equipment.

It is not a question of resource. The resources do exist, the UK is a wealthy country and has the talent, experience and technology to build proper ships.

It's a matter of allocation, and that falls at the feet of the Government.

But to imply the "lessons have been learned" is simply false, and a dangerous falsity at that. No lessons have been learned here. The lesson as to what happens to ill-equipped ships is being forgotten. The lesson as to what happens when you spend money on the wrong things instead of what's needed to protect those in service is being forgotten. The lesson as to what happens when you "plan for peacetime" is being forgotten.

The lessons go further than just "a good ship". The mere existence, and "need" for Type 31e is in itself a betrayal of the lessons learned at the cost of human lives in this country.

[donald_of_tokyo]

The lessons go further than just "a good ship". The mere existence, and "need" for Type 31e is in itself a betrayal of the lessons learned at the cost of human lives in this country.

May be. But, T26 cost says 13 of them cannot be built with originally allocated cost. Any military procurement cannot be free of resource issue. And this is why T31e comes in.

So, 10 (or 9) T26s, not 13, and totally ban the T31e may be the answer. As I state frequently, this is my favorite option.

But, analyzing Leander is another issue, and this is Type 31 General Purpose Frigate News thread, and "12 knots in motor" is a news, good news.

[Pongoglo]

Note that it states, Electric drive speed is 12knots, with 700kWx2 = 1400 kW power.

About time we have a modern propulsion system proposed for the next generation! Finally this might be something that is ASW capable, it is just a little bit slow.

The Damen Sigma 10514 LRP 2,575 tons 107 x 14 x 3.75m with two electric motors for total 2,650 kW max speed of 15 knots, cruise 14 knots so slightly surprised if the Leander with a FLD of 4,000? tons per RFI, 117 x 14.6 x 4.5 m on two electric motors for total of only 1,400 kW can achieve 12 knots as its ~1,400 tons heavier.

Whatever the power of the electric motors they would only be useful in an ASW operational mode if they were powered by silenced diesel generators with single-stage resilient engine mounting or preferably double-stage resilient mounting system with intermediate raft for addressing structure-borne noise and acoustic enclosure of for significant attenuation of air-borne noise, the system as used in the new Italian PPA frigates in build where two of their four DG's silenced to power its two 1.4 MW electric motors.

Agree with Nick here, electric motors are great for ASW but only if the diesels that power them are sufficiently quietened to let the HMS/TAS do their thing. I assume however that Babcock/BAE wouldn't have emphasised this capability if they weren't.

[Poiuytrewq]

The lessons go further than just "a good ship". The mere existence, and "need" for Type 31e is in itself a betrayal of the lessons learned at the cost of human lives in this country.

May be. But, T26 cost says 13 of them cannot be built with originally allocated cost. Any military procurement cannot be free of resource issue. And this is why T31e comes in.

Interesting debate. I think there is validity in both sides.

I think it raises a question. How much would it cost to build a Frigate that learns all the lessons of the past, provides a duty of care for all those who serve in it and is future proofed for what may be just around the corner?

A basic but innovative design, nothing fancy.

This seems like a more sensible place to start than simply building the best Frigate you can for £250m regardless whether it is fit for purpose or not.

[RetroSicotte]

The lessons go further than just "a good ship". The mere existence, and "need" for Type 31e is in itself a betrayal of the lessons learned at the cost of human lives in this country.

May be. But, T26 cost says 13 of them cannot be built with originally allocated cost. Any military procurement cannot be free of resource issue. And this is why T31e comes in.

Interesting debate. I think there is validity in both sides.

I think it raises a question. How much would it cost to build a Frigate that learns all the lessons of the past, provides a duty of care for all those who serve in it and is future proofed for what may be just around the corner?

A basic but innovative design, nothing fancy.

This seems like a more sensible place to start than simply building the best Frigate you can for £250m regardless whether it is fit for purpose or not.

A fun question, but one for the Fantasy thread at this point, as Donald mentioned.

[Rambo]

But the T31e is not being design for war fighting in mind. its a fact. I think the idea is that they would never be put in harms way. We have to accept a cut in proper escort numbers to 14. But the T31e does allow us to keep the current standing tasks etc. This seems a good plan on paper in peace time. But not very good if a war breaks out. I do not agree with this rational by the way. If the money was there and man power issues aside, we could do with 19 high end escorts with T31e on top of that for the tasks they are designed for. But that isnt going to happen.

[Aethulwulf]

But the T31e is not being design for war fighting in mind. its a fact. I think the idea is that they would never be put in harms way. We have to accept a cut in proper escort numbers to 14. But the T31e does allow us to keep the current standing tasks etc. This seems a good plan on paper in peace time. But not very good if a war breaks out. I do not agree with this rational by the way. If the money was there and man power issues aside, we could do with 19 high end escorts with T31e on top of that for the tasks they are designed for. But that isnt going to happen.

This is wrong. The T31 will be expected to go into harms way and will have a combat capability. However, unlike the T26, it is accepted that there could be occasions when it is overmatched it which case it needs to survive and withdraw (or be part of larger overmatching force).

[Pongoglo]

Just managed to watch the Leander video on the new site (DII wouldn't let me view) and it most definitely is a 4.5 Mk 8. Looks like with the exception of Phalanx nearly all the hardware would appear to have been ported over from the T23 ; Artesan, CAMM, 4.5 inch gun , Harpoon canisters , even decoy launchers and ECM. Looks like they may have been talking to the RN and now have a better idea of what might be available, or not. Probably why CL appear to be very confident they can knock them out that cheap. So much for nay GFE ?

www.leanderfrigate.com

Most interesting statement to my mind was under 'Future capabilities' - 'In designing Leander we have already considered all likely additional military roles - including anti-submarine warfare. '

[Caribbean]

In designing Leander we have already considered all likely additional military roles - including anti-submarine warfare. '

Well they should have! It's part of the RFI

"Stealthy / self noise limiting speed to allow active sonar usage where fitted" (core requirement) and "Entry-level ASW" (adaptability requirement) - both there for all to see

Am I the only one finding it strange that core requirements are being greeted as if it's a great revelation? Or have people bought into the "it's a grotty corvette/ OPV/ pimp/ rowing boat / God, I'm soooo depressed thing so much that seeing the actual spec is a genuine surprise?

Sorry @PG - didn't mean to pick on your post - just getting totally pissed off with the constant drone of misery from some quarters

[ViscountViktor]

The fact BAE/CL have released this flashy new website suggests they must be pretty confident about winning the bid.

If this is the case, I think it's a real missed opportunity to spread some work around the UK and see what can be done outside of the BAE bubble.

IMO the Arrowhead design was better anyway.

I'm worried about the Babcock yards now - apparently there is an Irish support ship coming up they could win. But just imagine how great it would be for both BAE & Babcock to be full to the brim making 26s, 31s & FSSs. Rosyth & Appledore desperarely need the work - at the moment Appledore workers are travelling to Devonport to work on 23 upgrades. It's not sustainable.

31s to Babcock and FSSs to BAE/Babcock alliance would be fantastic for British industry. Sadly it looks like neither will happen.

[dmereifield]

The fact BAE/CL have released this flashy new website suggests they must be pretty confident about winning the bid.

If this is the case, I think it's a real missed opportunity to spread some work around the UK and see what can be done outside of the BAE bubble.

IMO the Arrowhead design was better anyway.

I'm worried about the Babcock yards now - apparently there is an Irish support ship coming up they could win. But just imagine how great it would be for both BAE & Babcock to be full to the brim making 26s, 31s & FSSs. Rosyth & Appledore desperarely need the work - at the moment Appledore workers are travelling to Devonport to work on 23 upgrades. It's not sustainable.

31s to Babcock and FSSs to BAE/Babcock alliance would be fantastic for British industry. Sadly it looks like neither will happen.

Going with BAE/CL's Leander might also be a wise move (in the mind of HMG/MoD) to in order to allow more flexibility with the later T26 order(s). Even with the planned drawn out T26 drumbeat there is apparently only just enough work to keep the yard busy through to the T45 replacement in the early 2030's, so cutting T26 numbers later seems difficult, unless they can give BAE something else to keep the yard busy. That something else might be T31 blocks....if the T31 does turn out to be a capable tier 2 ASW light frigate, it might seem tempting to cut the last 2 T26 and replace them with an extra 2-3 ASW configured T31's and save a billion £ or so, without dropping overall escort numbers (possibly increasing by one or two, whilst still making substantial savings on procurement costs) and still keeping the promise of building 13 ships in Scotland. It could be argued that 2 T26 would be tied to each of the 2 carriers, leaving the other 2 for TAPS. Everything else would be undertaken by the 7-8 T31s, the 4 T45s (assuming that 1 T45 would be tied to each carrier) and the river B2s (low threat stuff)....sorry for straying off news slightly, but the potential ASW aspects of the T31 (highlighted in the new Leander material) is quite interesting, though it may make thr T26 numbers a bit more susceptible to cuts perhaps

[dmereifield]

Looks like with the exception of Phalanx nearly all the hardware would appear to have been ported over from the T23 ; Artesan, CAMM, 4.5 inch gun , Harpoon canisters , even decoy launchers and ECM.

Most interesting statement to my mind was under 'Future capabilities' - 'In designing Leander we have already considered all likely additional military roles - including anti-submarine warfare. '

If all that can be put together in a full naval standard hull for £250 million, what's not to like? If we could have a couple with an ASW configuration even if it requires and extra £50-100 million per hull, that would still seem like fantastic value too (on paper at least)

[Ron5]

In designing Leander we have already considered all likely additional military roles - including anti-submarine warfare. '

Well they should have! It's part of the RFI

"Stealthy / self noise limiting speed to allow active sonar usage where fitted" (core requirement) and "Entry-level ASW" (adaptability requirement) - both there for all to see

Am I the only one finding it strange that core requirements are being greeted as if it's a great revelation? Or have people bought into the "it's a grotty corvette/ OPV/ pimp/ rowing boat / God, I'm soooo depressed thing so much that seeing the actual spec is a genuine surprise?

Sorry @PG - didn't mean to pick on your post - just getting totally pissed off with the constant drone of misery from some quarters

The RFI also called for a 120m ship displacing 4,000 tons. A fact conveniently overlooked by supporters of the 140m/6,000 ton Arrowhead 140.

And it matters because despite all arm waving by folks here and there, the MoD and Treasury know for a fact, bigger warships cost more to buy and more to run. And they don't want to pay more. A 4k ton frigate at about $85k a ton sounds about right to them given a first rater would cost north of $100k per ton.

[Aethulwulf]

I have been wondering about the difference between the 117m and 120m Leander. Why add just 3m and offer it as a different version?

A folded Wildcat is 13.49m in length.
(A folded NH90 is 13.50m in length.)
(A folded MH60R is 12.51m in length)

A folded Merlin is 15.75 m in length

The 117m Leander can carry a Wildcat, or NH90, or MH60R. Could it be that the 120m Leander has a hanger large enough for a Merlin?

The ability to carry a Merlin would be enough to interest the RN, at least to understand the extra cost.

[Repulse]

I knock the T31e concept as as its currently positioned it is neither a warship nor a Patrol Sloop, it’s trying to be something in between which is taking up funds. Where I do differ from some with similar views is that if the T31e could be a specialist short legged ASW warship then I do see merit as it would free up valuable T26s (which I definitely would not cut in number).

However to get this for £250mn a vessel, forget any nice to have features - keep simply to a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan, a 2087 TAS and a Merlin hangar.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I knock the T31e concept as as its currently positioned it is neither a warship nor a Patrol Sloop, it’s trying to be something in between which is taking up funds. Where I do differ from some with similar views is that if the T31e could be a specialist short legged ASW warship then I do see merit as it would free up valuable T26s (which I definitely would not cut in number).

However to get this for £250mn a vessel, forget any nice to have features - keep simply to a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan, a 2087 TAS and a Merlin hangar.

The program cost for 5 T31e of 1.25B GBP is only 38% of that of French FTI 4200t light frigate. Therefore I think, "a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan" and a Wildcat/NH90 hangar (=even with no ASW, no Merlin) for £250mn is, if happens, very good buy.

Adding CAPTAS4CI or 2 (or CAPTAS4, only if can be re-used from T23s) and improving the CMS to handle ASW (multi-static active ASW) will require +£50-100mn I guess. But if it cost £80mn = total cost per hull will be £330mn, which is "a half of the average FTI cost". If we compare 1 FTI vs 2 Leander, it is clear it is a great buy, I think.


Four (not five) Leanders as;
- T31ASW: three with "a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan, a 2087 TAS, a small hull sonar, and a Wildcat hangar" (£330mn),
- T31GP: one with "a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan, a small hull sonar, and a Wildcat hangar" (£250+10mn), dedicated for training. (or find another £70mn to make it also ASW)

Then
- T31ASW can be an important contributor to CVTF ASW ring (Merlin will come from CV)
- Both types can do APT-S, or visiting ASEAN for FPDA exercises.
For better impression, I will call it a corvette, re-defining its meaning as "a fighting ship less capable than a frigate, but much than OPV".

[Caribbean]

The RFI also called for a 120m ship displacing 4,000 tons. A fact conveniently overlooked by supporters of the 140m/6,000 ton Arrowhead 140

Indeed it did, which is why the A140 was such a surprise when it was first mooted. If the A140 can be built for the budget, then it is still a better offering than the Leander, but it does fall outside the RFI parameters - possibly one of the non-compliant parts of the proposal. As I've said above, it will be interesting to see what gets tweaked when it returns.
As for running costs, that is mainly dependent on crew size, which will be broadly similar between the two (as will the equipment fit), but you are probably correct in that the A140 might cost more in other consumables (fuel, specifically)

[Ron5]

I have been wondering about the difference between the 117m and 120m Leander. Why add just 3m and offer it as a different version?

A folded Wildcat is 13.49m in length.
(A folded NH90 is 13.50m in length.)
(A folded MH60R is 12.51m in length)

A folded Merlin is 15.75 m in length

The 117m Leander can carry a Wildcat, or NH90, or MH60R. Could it be that the 120m Leander has a hanger large enough for a Merlin?

The ability to carry a Merlin would be enough to interest the RN, at least to understand the extra cost.

I suspect the difference is more financial than anything i.e. we can supply the 117m for 250 million. Your 120m Merlin hangar variant will cost more.

Maybe the 120m carries a proper 5 inch gun too

[Ron5]

The RFI also called for a 120m ship displacing 4,000 tons. A fact conveniently overlooked by supporters of the 140m/6,000 ton Arrowhead 140

Indeed it did, which is why the A140 was such a surprise when it was first mooted. If the A140 can be built for the budget, then it is still a better offering than the Leander, but it does fall outside the RFI parameters - possibly one of the non-compliant parts of the proposal. As I've said above, it will be interesting to see what gets tweaked when it returns.
As for running costs, that is mainly dependent on crew size, which will be broadly similar between the two (as will the equipment fit), but you are probably correct in that the A140 might cost more in other consumables (fuel, specifically)

If Cammell Laird say they can build their 4k tonner for 250 mill, why would anyone in the MoD/Treasury believe Babcock's saying they can build one 50% bigger for the same price?

Maybe Babcock's didn't even say that. Maybe they said 300 mill and the MoD said you're not compliant, come back when you are.

[Aethulwulf]

I have been wondering about the difference between the 117m and 120m Leander. Why add just 3m and offer it as a different version?

A folded Wildcat is 13.49m in length.
(A folded NH90 is 13.50m in length.)
(A folded MH60R is 12.51m in length)

A folded Merlin is 15.75 m in length

The 117m Leander can carry a Wildcat, or NH90, or MH60R. Could it be that the 120m Leander has a hanger large enough for a Merlin?

The ability to carry a Merlin would be enough to interest the RN, at least to understand the extra cost.

I suspect the difference is more financial than anything i.e. we can supply the 117m for 250 million. Your 120m Merlin hangar variant will cost more.

Maybe the 120m carries a proper 5 inch gun too

I agree, the 120m variant probably takes them over the £250 million mark, otherwise why bother with the 117m variant.

If this is true, it shows the tightness of the financial margins. I would guess that a 120m variant would only cost 1% or 2% more than the 117m variant.

[abc123]

I knock the T31e concept as as its currently positioned it is neither a warship nor a Patrol Sloop, it’s trying to be something in between which is taking up funds. Where I do differ from some with similar views is that if the T31e could be a specialist short legged ASW warship then I do see merit as it would free up valuable T26s (which I definitely would not cut in number).

However to get this for £250mn a vessel, forget any nice to have features - keep simply to a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan, a 2087 TAS and a Merlin hangar.

IMHO, that wouldn't be too bad.

[Ron5]

I knock the T31e concept as as its currently positioned it is neither a warship nor a Patrol Sloop, it’s trying to be something in between which is taking up funds. Where I do differ from some with similar views is that if the T31e could be a specialist short legged ASW warship then I do see merit as it would free up valuable T26s (which I definitely would not cut in number).

However to get this for £250mn a vessel, forget any nice to have features - keep simply to a 57mm CIWS gun, a dozen CAMM, Artisan, a 2087 TAS and a Merlin hangar.

Short legged? I think you need read the Leander specs again.

[Bring Deeps]

Babcock won't have dropped out. They will have invested a lot in coming up with their design.

Weight/length. Up for negotiation until the first steel is cut based on the history of UK frigates and destroyers over the last 70 years.

Over the same period there had been a constant debate about the high end and low end mix of hulls. During that time there has never been the money to give the RN it's full wish list.

Let's just wait and see what we end up with.

[Ron5]

Babcock won't have dropped out. They will have invested a lot in coming up with their design.

Weight/length. Up for negotiation until the first steel is cut based on the history of UK frigates and destroyers over the last 70 years.

Over the same period there had been a constant debate about the high end and low end mix of hulls. During that time there has never been the money to give the RN it's full wish list.

Let's just wait and see what we end up with.

Who said they dropped out? I'm suggested they were kicked because of non-compliance.

And seeing how they're on their 3rd design in 6 months, I'd say that wasting money on designs is their own fault. Nobody else's.

[andrew98]

Maybe the 120m version is the one with space for the towed array sonar.