Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[ArmChairCivvy]

Baseline 9 for the Hobart class is in the cards, depends on RAN funding.

True. The desperate, last minute pitch was: why have just three AAW destroyers, when you can get 3+9 with a similar capability
- of course, this was a sales pitch; not a costed plan or even alternative
- a bit like Wasp class was being talked about
"
Wasp Class
Displacement: Approx. 40,500 tons (41,150 metric tons) full load
Complement: 104 officers, 1,004 enlisted
1,894 Marine Detachment "
- but Canberras fitted the bill
"
Displacement: 27,851 tonnes (30,700 tons) maximum
Troops: 978 (+ 146 additional)
Complement: 243 core (+ 36 additional)"

Going back to our T31s (this part that NickC brought up may count as news), the the International Aegis Fire Control Loop could bring some distributed lethality into the RN, by turning frigates bordering on OPVs into networked shooters (AD into AAW; as there is nothing for ASW in the RFI).
- with "not enormous" money, a version of "designed for but to be fitted later"

[tomuk]

RRS Sir David Attenborough 10,000t Polar Research ship was launched this morning at Cammel Laird, Birkenhead.
This is the first slipway launch of a new ship at Cammel Laird for 26 years.
Would be great to see 2x Arrowhead 140 on the slipways in the future.

https://twitter.com/CammellLaird/status ... 6627131392

[Repulse]

Common Combat System for USN, RN, RAN and RCN?

https://news.usni.org/2018/07/12/navy-h ... canada-u-k

[donald_of_tokyo]

Now that looks like a far more serious bit of kit. The type31 might not be the weak upgunned opv folk were afraid of if they pick Arrowhead. Is that a 24 cell silo? Additional space behind the main gun for more. No ciws though that I can see.

The attached image pretty much is a weak upgunned OPV really, it still only meets the barest minimum of the RFI.

Arrowhead 140 and Leander both are a (so-so) large ship armed as heavy corvette (or even less). For me, there is not big difference.

Leander-concept-for-Royal-Navy-Type-31e-Frigate-3-1014x487.jpg

-Arrowhead is an imported design, has only a little "British" equipments onboard, has large future growth margins (= vacant), very lightly armed as the size, larger helo hangar, higher speed, with larger operational cost. Looks like a proper-frigate, but it is surely not.
-Leander is of British design, has so so "British" origin equipments, has smaller hull, still lightly armed as the size with small but non-negligible growth margins, with smaller operational cost. Looks like an enlarged heavy corvette, which is exactly what it is.

Because I think only a small amount of future growth margins is needed (because T31e is not a frigate, never have a budget to be a frigate, and politically MUST NOT pretend to be a frigate), for me, both are very much Tie. Good thing.

[Poiuytrewq]

Looks like a proper-frigate...

As far as I can see this is the main object of the T31 project. As long as they look like frigates the chaps at the treasury are content.

Maybe we should designate them FINO's = Frigates In Name Only.

I very much hope the MDP pushes the reset button and increases the funding to allow a more sensible budget for the T31 programme so that RN can get 5 Frigates in the FTI capability spectrum.

[Tempest414]

As I have said If we are to get a ship for the RN with half decent capability the budget needs to be 2 billion for the 5 ships. However from a export point of view the companies have said they can build a basic ship for 250 million so a export customer could buy a buy a ship armed form a GP heavy corvette to a ASW frigate at cost of 250 to 500 million.

[Poiuytrewq]

As I have said If we are to get a ship for the RN with half decent capability the budget needs to be 2 billion for the 5 ships.

100% Agree. But only if new money fills the £750m shortfall.

However from a export point of view the companies have said they can build a basic ship for 250 million so a export customer could buy a buy a ship armed form a GP heavy corvette to a ASW frigate at cost of 250 to 500 million.

Given the export success of the T26 programme it must be time for HMG to reevaluate the whole direction of the T31 programme.

I agree on your price ranges between £250m to £500m. Sounds spot on to me. Anything more and you are approaching T26 lite territory.

This would give UK PLC a complete range of exportable warships from OPV's with the RB2/RB3, an attractive Corvette design with Leander and light and heavy Frigates with the T31/T26 models. The MHC programme and any future Amphibious programme could potentially add to this further. We even have a very nice CVF design in the portfolio

The list looks impressive:

OPV (RB2/RB3) £90m/£110m
Corvette (Leander 110) £200m
Tier2 Patrol Frigate (T31) £300m
Tier2 GP Frigate (T31) £400m
Tier2 AAW Frigate (T31) £500m
Tier2 ASW Frigate (T31) £500m
Tier1 ASW (T26 lite) £650m
Tier1 ASW (T26) £750m
Tier1 ASW (T26 Heavy)£850m
Tier1 AAW (T45 replacement) £?

Bearing all that in mind is the A140 really the right hull to base the UK light Frigate programme on?

It may well be, but if it is, it is mainly because of the inadequate budget provision, not because it's the best possible design. Another perfect example of misguided treasury financial short termism.

Will RN add credibility to the A140 design by adopting it? Yes

Will the A140 design export successfully? Maybe, but OMT have tried very hard to export the design, with little success up to now.

If the A140 ends up getting chosen as the UK's Tier2 Frigate design, I won't complain (too much), but ideally I would like to see HMG take a long term view and produce a world class light frigate hull built on T26 heritage.

This may extend the T31 commissioning date by 2 to 3 years but I think the gap can be plugged by retaining the RB1's and modernising the Amphibious fleet which could almost start immediately.

It might just be worth the wait....

[RetroSicotte]

Reposting as news.

[chinook88]

Type 31e Frigate programme suspended
The Ministry of Defence has been forced to delay the Type 31e Frigate programme.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/type-31 ... suspended/

[SKB]

Type 31e Frigate programme suspended

Can we buy those three T23 back from your country?!

[Ron5]

I think there are three possible reasons for this:

1. There's only two bidders as far as we know, Babcocks and Cammel Laird. One of them may have decided to pull out of the competition.

If so, this would not surprise me, it would be a very brave executive that would sign a cast iron, fixed price, fixed delivery date, contract to design and build their very first frigate program. Talk about risky then throw in the low ball price.

Many think that Bae regarded it as too risky to bid themselves (and they do know a little bit about building warships in the UK for possibly the worst government defence customer in the world) so maybe the other guys figured that out too. Especially in a consortium which would have to decide how to apportion risk i.e. which of the member companies would pay the penalties if the ships were delivered late. If one screwed up, would all have to pay the penalties? What if it was caused by a workers strike? Why should that company pay anything? etc etc.

2. The other reason could be that the MoD disqualified one of the contestants for not meeting the baseline requirements. Plenty of room for that.

3. It's a cut and the MoD just made up a reason. Those military pay hikes won't fund themselves. And speadsheet Phil is just as big a weasel as his predecessors.

[Ron5]

To me it does seem to be an odd time to cancel to program based on price.

I though the idea was that to this point, the MoD and shipbuilders would agree to a spec that all felt had a decent chance of being built for the money.

The next step would have a couple or three of the contenders do a detailed design and detailed costing to comeback next year ready to negotiate contracts. The best of them then winning the competition.

So why stop the competition before the costings have been done? Can't be the money can it?

[Ron5]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... mpetition/

[Aethulwulf]

I think there are three possible reasons for this:

1. There's only two bidders as far as we know, Babcocks and Cammel Laird. One of them may have decided to pull out of the competition.

If so, this would not surprise me, it would be a very brave executive that would sign a cast iron, fixed price, fixed delivery date, contract to design and build their very first frigate program. Talk about risky then throw in the low ball price.

Many think that Bae regarded it as too risky to bid themselves (and they do know a little bit about building warships in the UK for possibly the worst government defence customer in the world) so maybe the other guys figured that out too. Especially in a consortium which would have to decide how to apportion risk i.e. which of the member companies would pay the penalties if the ships were delivered late. If one screwed up, would all have to pay the penalties? What if it was caused by a workers strike? Why should that company pay anything? etc etc.

2. The other reason could be that the MoD disqualified one of the contestants for not meeting the baseline requirements. Plenty of room for that.

3. It's a cut and the MoD just made up a reason. Those military pay hikes won't fund themselves. And speadsheet Phil is just as big a weasel as his predecessors.

Agree with all of the above, but there is also another possibility...

4. The programme has been quietly on hold for sometime and the awarding of contracts under the Competitive Design Phase was being held off until MDP reported. Given the failure of even headline budgets to have been agreed in MDP so far, the bidders were informed on Friday (the day after the MDP update was published) and the public announcement today (the day that Parliament breaks for its summer holiday). Type 31 programme will now have to wait until Autumn budget and full MDP is finished.

[Aethulwulf]

The Telegraph states:

The competition to build “budget” frigates for the Royal Navy has been halted by the Ministry of Defence, which said there were “insufficient compliant bids” to run a competition.

Taken at face value, that means that one of the two bids was judged not to be compliant. Given the big "No comment" from Babcock, maybe it was their bid. It's possibly a contractual non-compliance rather than a failure to meet the technical requirements; the Telegraph hints that it maybe due to allowed profit margins within the consortium.

[Ron5]

The programme has been quietly on hold for sometime and the awarding of contracts under the Competitive Design Phase was being held off until MDP reported. Given the failure of even headline budgets to have been agreed in MDP so far, the bidders were informed on Friday (the day after the MDP update was published) and the public announcement today (the day that Parliament breaks for its summer holiday). Type 31 programme will now have to wait until Autumn budget and full MDP is finished.

Don't disagree but I assumed the design contracts would be pretty small, a few million at the most so hardly anything to be held up for the MDP.

Also, CL has publicly commented that they are still 100% committed to the Type 31 program and still want to win. Babcocks are saying nothing. Dare we read anything into that?

Sorry, posted that last sentence before I read your comment above.

Babcocks is making money right now and doesn't need Type 31e. So maybe they're playing hardball?

[Poiuytrewq]

The programme has been quietly on hold for sometime and the awarding of contracts under the Competitive Design Phase was being held off until MDP reported. Given the failure of even headline budgets to have been agreed in MDP so far, the bidders were informed on Friday (the day after the MDP update was published) and the public announcement today (the day that Parliament breaks for its summer holiday). Type 31 programme will now have to wait until Autumn budget and full MDP is finished.

Don't disagree but I assumed the design contracts would be pretty small, a few million at the most so hardly anything to be held up for the MDP.

Also, CL has publicly commented that they are still 100% committed to the Type 31 program and still want to win. Babcocks are saying nothing. Dare we read anything into that?

Sorry, posted that last sentence before I read your comment above.

Babcocks is making money right now and doesn't need Type 31e. So maybe they're playing hardball?

Could it be something like this,

• Only 2 bids submitted (BAE/CL and Team31)
  
  Both bids meet requirements
  
  Only BAE/CL can bring bid in on budget
  
  Babcock says not possible at £250 (surprise, surprise)
  
  With only one viable bid, BAE/CL would automatically win
  
  RN doesn't like or want Leander
  
  At £250, could the profit margin on the BAE/CL bid actually be too high?

Plausible?

[clinch]

Does anyone think we are moving to a 14-frigate fleet after all?

[inch]

Will be a 14 frigate fleet anyway and the rest opv either larger or smaller ones

[Timmymagic]

for possibly the worst government defence customer in the world)

Come on...give the Canadians and Indians some credit....

[Repulse]

My thoughts on the T31e pause announcement:

- There is no new money, if there was the time of maximum political collateral would have been the NATO summit.
- Cuts are coming, and they will be dressed in a MDP smoke screen of “the right forces for the 21st century”. The fact that the MOD pay rise has to come out of the budget on top of the £20bn short fall just compounds the problem.
- Always thought the T31e was neither fish nor fowl and ultimately the wrong choice and would never win export orders.
- I think the RN played along with the T31e as they wanted to dispel the (Treasury) £250mn frigate myth, which has just been dispelled.
- With the Australian T26 success and hope for Canadian orders, it looks good again.
- The game has changed even over the past 3 years since the SDSR. First tier peer-on-peer tensions are back on, and the need for the UK to act independently. Global capabilities is now as important as defending our ex-EU buddies.

I personally think the RN is now more important than it was 3 years ago (of course I would ), so I’m hoping the cuts come from elsewhere, including the fallacy of a globally deployable Division. Assuming therefore the RN budget remains static - I’d recommend:

- Cut 3 T23s over the next 3 years, but keep the 3 B1 Rivers
- Build 10 full fat ASW T26s
- Accelerate a MHPC programme to start delivering late 2020s
- Partner with Oz and NZ on EoS standing commitments, and forward base a T26 in Oman and Australia.

[Ron5]

From the Times:

Government plans to buy a “budget frigate” within five years have been thrown into chaos after a competition to build the warship was suspended amid a funding crisis.

Sources warned last night that the Type 31e frigate may never materialise. It is a serious blow for the Royal Navy, which needs at least five of the ships to maintain the size of its surface fleet.

Shipbuilders and yards in the running for the £1.25 billion contract were taken by surprise when the Ministry of Defence announced the freeze on Friday, just as they prepared to finalise their respective ship designs. Defence Equipment and Support, the branch of the MoD in charge of buying kit, claimed that there had not been enough “compliant bids”.

Industry insiders disputed this, saying that a failure by Gavin Williamson, the defence secretary, to secure new money by the summer to fund his ambitions for the armed forces had thrown into doubt a range of equipment contracts.

They noted that bidders for the frigate work had been waiting to receive funding from the MoD to start the competitive design phase. This should have happened by May, with initial construction targeted for spring. Instead there was silence and then the freeze.

The MoD said that the competition would be restarted soon but sources said that the delay would probably be at least a year, undermining a plan to deliver the first of the new ships by 2023.

Defence experts agreed. “It is cloud-cuckoo-land,” Admiral Lord West of Spithead, a former head of the Royal Navy, said. Francis Tusa, editor of Defence Analysis, said: “It’s impossible.”

Paul Beaver, a defence analyst, said: “It has taken three years to get to a point where they appear to need to start again. This is not smart procurement.”

There were at least three consortiums in the competition: one was led by Babcock; one comprised BAE Systems and Cammell Laird; and the third included Atlas Elektronik UK.

Aside from the question of funding, it is understood that officials at Defence Equipment and Support were starting to realise that a cheap warship, without the array of expensive radars, sensors and weapons, would struggle to operate in submarine-infested waters.

During Sir Michael Fallon’s time as defence secretary a funding crisis with the equipment programme escalated, scuppering plans to purchase a full fleet of 13 more sophisticated but expensive Type 26 frigates. Instead he signed off on a 2015 plan to buy eight Type 26 frigates and five cheaper versions.

A failure by the MoD to secure new warships into service by 2023 will leave the Royal Navy without 13 operational frigates as the ageing Type 23 warships start to be brought out of service.

A spokeswoman for the MoD said: “This is an early contract in a wider procurement process and we will incorporate the lessons learned and begin again as soon as possible so the programme can continue at pace.”

[RetroSicotte]

...it is understood that officials at Defence Equipment and Support were starting to realise that a cheap warship, without the array of expensive radars, sensors and weapons, would struggle to operate in submarine-infested waters.

STARTING to realise?

Who are they even hiring?

It was said then, it will be said now. A frantic rush to save money in a cloud dream instead of a simple, understood, steady drumbeat of 13 frigates and the funding to support will cost more than the increase for that would have taken. It happens every time.

[Scimitar54]

Manning issues apart, as things stand. 5 x T31's instead of 5 x T26 = No!
5 x T31's plus 13 x T26 = Maybe?

[Scimitar54]

Or money to be spent elsewhere (on extra P8's for example)?