Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Its as always about trade-offs, Merlin capability will cost, how much unknown, but would be looking to save every penny to prioritise shock resistance and armour to enable greater chance of ship when hit to survive and keep fighting and save lives of crew. That as understand was one of the many lessons learned from the Falklands.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

If the Type 31e is built without a Merlin capable flight deck when even the River 2 OPV's have one then the whole project will be a farce

albedo
Member
Posts: 178
Joined: 27 Jun 2017, 21:44
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by albedo »

There isn't an issue here is there? Baseline capability is for NH90 compatibility. Then from the baseline, RN will, almost certainly, have at least a few extra features. I'd have guessed that an upgrade to Merlin-capable would have a high benefit-cost ratio and so might rank quite strongly against other 'possibles'.

serge750
Senior Member
Posts: 1068
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

I get the feeling the "salesman" just said NH90 capable flightdeck to sway possible Export orders for the T31e, as he knows the RN are already having 5xT31, typical sales spin, it's 99.9% R that the flight deck will allow a merlin to land on the deck.

S M H
Member
Posts: 433
Joined: 03 May 2015, 12:59
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by S M H »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Anyway RFI requires as a "core" to be capable to handle NH90. Don't be afraid, MEKO200 flight deck is 25m long, and Merlin capable. Its pretty common.
This problem bedeveled the navy in the past. Flight deck loadings that precluded larger types then in service landing on the flight deck . This ment transhiping equipment on hever loading flight decks or waiting for a flight deck rated type to become evadable. Anecdotally Cdr Brown while doing the dishes in Debby Georges sink in Gibraltar commented on this . Having being told that flight deck repairs were to be done on return to U.K.. Were more extensive repairs were needed causing H M S Rhyl to be paid off. He commented that it was essential that all future warships should be equipped with a standard loading flight deck . Even if the hangar was unable to take the larger helicopter. This was before the fundermental redesign of the type 23 Frigate and the core requirement flight deck adopted subsequently. It would be stupidity for the type 31 not to have a Merlin capable flight deck. This would also fundementaly reduce the export chances of the design or hulls..

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Sorry to say, but "unable to land Merlin" will not affect export. There are only a handful of Navies using ~15t class helicopter (RN, Canada, and Japan). But, I agree it is a big issue for RN.

But I do not think Merlin capable flight deck and NH90 capable is not that much different. It is the Lynx/Wildcat which is significantly compact.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

For me with the number of Merlin's in the fleet all frigate decks should be able to land and refuel them as a base line even if they can not hangar them

benny14
Member
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Oct 2017, 16:07
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by benny14 »

Tempest414 wrote:For me with the number of Merlin's in the fleet all frigate decks should be able to land and refuel them as a base line even if they can not hangar them
I agree. Given the low number of hulls, having five escorts without the ability to land and refuel a Merlin is a serious issue. If the Leander RN design cannot handle a Merlin then my vote automatically goes to Arrowhead.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Is the Kareef that the Leander is based on Merlin capable?

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

the deck is rated at 12 tons max so no it is not Merlin capable

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Also, Khareef's flight deck is only ~20 m long, a bit smaller than that of T23's (~23m), or MEKO200 (~25 m).

Spinflight
Member
Posts: 579
Joined: 01 Aug 2016, 03:32
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Spinflight »

Poiuytrewq wrote:Is the Kareef that the Leander is based on Merlin capable?
Nope, which is why the 'Leander' isn't either. The only good thing in the design is the 57mm.

It's a minimal effort bid, which itself is as the result of BAes manipulation of the T26 program.

The interesting thing here is the exclusive agreements for the yards based upon bidder. Only Harland and Wolff really left, and the DUP will be lobbying hard. All foreign yards and designs have given up the ghost, partly as they can't secure a UK yard and partly as they'd be creating a competitor to their existing designs.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Harland & Wolff are part of the Babcock's team and raped up in the Arrowhead 120 bid for type 31

benny14
Member
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Oct 2017, 16:07
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by benny14 »

Having watched the video again, there is a description of the flight deck which reads "The flight deck is large enough to land a helicopter such as a Merlin, while the main hanger can accommodate a light or medium lift helicopter such as a Wildcat or Seahawk"

Image

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Good eyes. :)

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Up to 4 bids, who are the other 2? Maybe Spartan?

Spinflight
Member
Posts: 579
Joined: 01 Aug 2016, 03:32
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Spinflight »

Tempest414 wrote:Harland & Wolff are part of the Babcock's team and raped up in the Arrowhead 120 bid for type 31
Not exclusively I believe.

Pretty likely they'd get something out of any winning bid.

inch
Senior Member
Posts: 1311
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:35

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by inch »

Inchon class maybe or uk derivative

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Spinflight wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:Is the Kareef that the Leander is based on Merlin capable?
Nope, which is why the 'Leander' isn't either. The only good thing in the design is the 57mm.

It's a minimal effort bid, which itself is as the result of BAes manipulation of the T26 program.

The interesting thing here is the exclusive agreements for the yards based upon bidder. Only Harland and Wolff really left, and the DUP will be lobbying hard. All foreign yards and designs have given up the ghost, partly as they can't secure a UK yard and partly as they'd be creating a competitor to their existing designs.
1. The Leander bid will be from Cammel Laird not Bae

2. Many believe that the only way to hit the 250m target is to base the Type 31 on an existing design otherwise too much of the budget will get spent on design. Interestingly BMT have written on this topic in the past. Their design for the Tide RFA was a militarized version of a Norwegian commercial tanker. Unfortunately their Venator is a new, clean sheet design.

3. The Type 31 has to be a British owned design by the rules of the competition.

By the way, please everyone stop with the MT30 powered Type 31. That's an absurd suggestion on so, so many levels, which unsurprisingly is not included with any of the designs revealed to date.

Edit from Admin - Point can be made without insulting someone.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2784
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Ron5 wrote:By the way, please everyone stop with the MT30 powered Type 31. That's an absurd suggestion on so, so many levels, which unsurprisingly is not included with any of the designs revealed to date.
You should pass that up the line to your management - they brought it up in the first place
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Ron5 wrote:
Spinflight wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:Is the Kareef that the Leander is based on Merlin capable?
Nope, which is why the 'Leander' isn't either. The only good thing in the design is the 57mm.

It's a minimal effort bid, which itself is as the result of BAes manipulation of the T26 program.

The interesting thing here is the exclusive agreements for the yards based upon bidder. Only Harland and Wolff really left, and the DUP will be lobbying hard. All foreign yards and designs have given up the ghost, partly as they can't secure a UK yard and partly as they'd be creating a competitor to their existing designs.
1. The Leander bid will be from Cammel Laird not Bae

2. Many believe that the only way to hit the 250m target is to base the Type 31 on an existing design otherwise too much of the budget will get spent on design. Interestingly BMT have written on this topic in the past. Their design for the Tide RFA was a militarized version of a Norwegian commercial tanker. Unfortunately their Venator is a new, clean sheet design.

3. The Type 31 has to be a British owned design by the rules of the competition.

By the way, please everyone stop with the MT30 powered Type 31. That's an absurd suggestion on so, so many levels, which unsurprisingly is not included with any of the designs revealed to date.
The Babcock Arrowhead T31e will surely leverage the current contract they won for the detail design of the ~3,700T USCG OPC.

The Korean 3,600T FLD Daegu class frigates CODLOG - HED propulsion, 2 x shaft mounted DRS 1.7MW PMM, 2 x MTU 12V1163 diesels and one MT30 GT. Last December HHI awarded $586M/~£420M contract from DAPA for two ships numbers three and four, £210M each though no detailed info as to what is included in price, but shows that it is possible in Korea to include a MT30 in frigate so may not an absurd suggestion.

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2784
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

According to wiki, existing versions came with a towed array and 5 inch gun, as well
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Babcock and BMT have gone very quiet recently, I suspect a lot of work is going on behind the scenes at present working out which of their 2 designs would have the best chance of besting the BAE bid. Leander must be the favourite now. I wonder if something radical and out of the box like a scaled up 120m BMT Venari might give them the edge over Leander?

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Babcocks will always be the favorite.

A Babcocks guy wrote the shipbuilding strategy that created the Type 31 and that Babcocks guy wrote the recommendation (enshrined in one of the appendices) that Bae should not be given the contract. The government accepted that recommendation.

In the UK, technical merits will always take a back seat in pseudo competitions of this ilk. Politics rules.

jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1110
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Ron5 wrote:Babcocks will always be the favorite.

A Babcocks guy wrote the shipbuilding strategy that created the Type 31 and that Babcocks guy wrote the recommendation (enshrined in one of the appendices) that Bae should not be given the contract. The government accepted that recommendation.

In the UK, technical merits will always take a back seat in pseudo competitions of this ilk. Politics rules.
A'h so nothing like the KC-46 contract then. If politics had been kept out of this programme, the USAF would have a tanker in service. Instead of which you have a programme which is way over budget, and fraught with problems.

Post Reply