Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[shark bait]

Anti submarine key

The only interesting thing to come out today.

We now have indications from both teams that ASW is a consideration, lets hope it comes into fruition, and the slim chance of getting a valuable frigate may be realised.

[Poiuytrewq]

"Anti Submarine Key"

Could that mean that CL and BAE believe that due to the competing designs all having a similar weapons fit and probably built with similar hull standards, whoever provides a genuine ASW capability for the £250m gets the order?

[Tempest414]

The other interesting thing is no new unproven tec only kit that is proven and works i.e no room for failure as said must work first time out of the box

[benny14]

"Anti Submarine Key" Could that mean that CL and BAE believe that due to the competing designs all having a similar weapons fit and probably built with similar hull standards, whoever provides a genuine ASW capability for the £250m gets the order?

We now have indications from both teams that ASW is a consideration, lets hope it comes into fruition, and the slim chance of getting a valuable frigate may be realised.

Lets not forget the whole sentence "More than 20 potential markets. Supply chain needs to offer variety of capabilities to be competitive. Anti submarine key."

I take that as the vessel/hull needs to be capable of supporting an ASW capability, to increase its export potential. Although I think it is highly likely that the RN version will only have a hull mounted sonar, the Fitted for but not with capacity would be there, should the money to upgrade be there in the future. Which would allow us to quickly beef up our ASW capacity should the need/money arise.

I think there shall be 6+6, but in this image I'm afraid I see only 4+4 =8.

Going from 32 to 12 or even worse 8 is a significant downgrade in capacity over the type 23 GP.

[dmereifield]

"Anti Submarine Key" Could that mean that CL and BAE believe that due to the competing designs all having a similar weapons fit and probably built with similar hull standards, whoever provides a genuine ASW capability for the £250m gets the order?

We now have indications from both teams that ASW is a consideration, lets hope it comes into fruition, and the slim chance of getting a valuable frigate may be realised.

Lets not forget the whole sentence "More than 20 potential markets. Supply chain needs to offer variety of capabilities to be competitive. Anti submarine key."

I take that as the vessel/hull needs to be capable of supporting an ASW capability, to increase its export potential. Although I think it is highly likely that the RN version will only have a hull mounted sonar, the Fitted for but not with capacity would be there, should the money to upgrade be there in the future. Which would allow us to quickly beef up our ASW capacity should the need/money arise.

I think there shall be 6+6, but in this image I'm afraid I see only 4+4 =8.

Going from 32 to 12 or even worse 8 is a significant downgrade in capacity over the type 23 GP.

8? Surely not. They are essentially free (just need transferring over from the T23s; although we don't know how they would be valued/costed when included in the project). Are there other schematics available? Maybe it's two banks of 5 behind the gun (with the gun obscuring the middle 2?) or maybe there are more located elsewhere on the ship???

[Gabriele]

Navy Lookout has better images. Better hope they build several "Leanders" because it looks like a single Type 23 will provide enough Sea Ceptor for almost 3 of these...







http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/leander ... -industry/

[ArmChairCivvy]

it looks like a single Type 23 will provide enough Sea Ceptor for almost 3 of these...

Heh-heh, that one is the coming 2 kt Finnish Navy corvette (the price tallies, too: 4 for a bn £s)
- all you get extra for the "double" tonnage is the mission bay (and deployability, sure)

[wirralpete]

Looking at the cgi images could the sea ceptor missiles be the ones located amidships as the strike length silos would surely impact on the mission bay space below? The space on there could surely fit upto 48 ported from each T23.
The silos to the rear of the gun raised above the deck would seem more likely to be strike length mk41 although 2 sets of 6 seems weird as they usually come in sets of 8
BZ to Cammell Laird btw

[Defiance]

Looking at the cgi images could the sea ceptor missiles be the ones located amidships as the strike length silos would surely impact on the mission bay space below? The space on there could surely fit upto 48 ported from each T23.
The silos to the rear of the gun raised above the deck would seem more likely to be strike length mk41 although 2 sets of 6 seems weird as they usually come in sets of 8
BZ to Cammell Laird btw

The ones rear of the gun look like the mushroom farm from the T23s. Mk41's are much more square

[abc123]

DWjNRTJWkAAQ_Q6.jpg-large.jpegkhareef.jpg
Comparing these two images, it looks like (at least in this "navylookout" image), the gun is 76mm, SAM launcher there (SeaMICA in Khareef and CAMM in Leander), 4-sets of decoy launcher before the bridge (not just slope). Also, roof-hight of the hanger is significantly higher in Leander.

For me, nothing major has changed from the original "Cutlass" image. Just in detail.

Any why not? There's nothing bad in that...

[jimthelad]

they have sea wolf radar tracker on top of bridge in that image. i suspect it will be 2 x 12 camm in front.

[benny14]

Any why not? There's nothing bad in that...

It cost Oman £400m for 3 of them, £133m each. It is great news since the Leander is slightly enlarged mostly to give it a mission bay which is a scaled down version of the type 26s, and they are getting most of their armament free from the type 23. They were also built in the UK. Gives you a little hope that the type 31 will fit in the £250m price bracket and be fairly decent.

[donald_of_tokyo]

they have sea wolf radar tracker on top of bridge in that image. i suspect it will be 2 x 12 camm in front.

It is gun-FCS, I believe (anyway no need for SeaWolf tracker). And I still see only 6+6 mush-rooms.

スクリーンショット 2018-02-24 20.00.10.png

Any why not? There's nothing bad in that...

It cost Oman £400m for 3 of them, £133m each. It is great news since the Leander is slightly enlarged mostly to give it a mission bay which is a scaled down version of the type 26s, and they are getting most of their armament free from the type 23. They were also built in the UK. Gives you a little hope that the type 31 will fit in the £250m price bracket and be fairly decent.

Khareef was £133m each. It had many "short falls", and blamed to be "pimped-up OPV". Someone here said it has top-heavy issue, as well.

But, T31e as a Leander concept differs in two aspects:
1: 18 m longer, and 1000t larger (Khareef 2700t, and Leander 3700t).
2: £250m average for 5 hulls

Top-heavy issue, if existing, can be perfectly solved with item-1. But, £250m is not enough to make it "proper light frigate".

T23GP mod cost is how much? I guess ~£100m. It is made of equipment costs, software license cost, and integration cost (wiring, compiling, and many testings). Also need a small cost of dismantling old CMS (there is a good youtube movie on Canadian frigate upgrade work).
When (re-)integrating into T31, equipments and (maybe) software can be reused. But, you need dis-installing (from T23), bolting (to T31), new wiring, and non-negligible amount to testings. This will be all costed in T31e program. So, logically of course less than the T23 mod cost, and I believe significantly small, that is why I say £50-60m. So, it will reach "half" the cost of FTI, by not more.

In other words, because RN/MOD is spending only half the cost of FTI, if T31e is useful at least a half of FTI, it is "a good buy", for sure.

[dmereifield]

they have sea wolf radar tracker on top of bridge in that image. i suspect it will be 2 x 12 camm in front.

It is gun-FCS, I believe (anyway no need for SeaWolf tracker). And I still see only 6+6 mush-rooms.

スクリーンショット 2018-02-24 20.00.10.png

Any why not? There's nothing bad in that...

It cost Oman £400m for 3 of them, £133m each. It is great news since the Leander is slightly enlarged mostly to give it a mission bay which is a scaled down version of the type 26s, and they are getting most of their armament free from the type 23. They were also built in the UK. Gives you a little hope that the type 31 will fit in the £250m price bracket and be fairly decent.

Khareef was £133m each. It had many "short falls", and blamed to be "pimped-up OPV". Someone here said it has top-heavy issue, as well.

But, T31e as a Leander concept differs in two aspects:
1: 18 m longer, and 1000t larger (Khareef 2700t, and Leander 3700t).
2: £250m average for 5 hulls

Top-heavy issue, if existing, can be perfectly solved with item-1. But, £250m is not enough to make it "proper light frigate".

T23GP mod cost is how much? I guess ~£100m. It is made of equipment costs, software license cost, and integration cost (wiring, compiling, and many testings). Also need a small cost of dismantling old CMS (there is a good youtube movie on Canadian frigate upgrade work).
When (re-)integrating into T31, equipments and (maybe) software can be reused. But, you need dis-installing (from T23), bolting (to T31), new wiring, and non-negligible amount to testings. [bThis will be all costed in T31e program[/b]. So, logically of course less than the T23 mod cost, and I believe significantly small, that is why I say £50-60m. So, it will reach "half" the cost of FTI, by not more.

In other words, because RN/MOD is spending only half the cost of FTI, if T31e is useful at least a half of FTI, it is "a good buy", for sure.

We don't know this yet. I guess many of us are hoping that we get the baseline hull and anything that must be baked in from the start for £250m. Then as a separately funded project we get all of the other equipment cross decked and paid for as a separate programme. So we might end up with something equivalent to ca. £350 for each FF

[andrew98]

I still like the look of the BMT Venator 110, and would like to see it be developed and built.
Cannot see the point in not having at least a Merlin flight deck and a Merlin + UAV hangar.
Should use same equipment as the rest of the RN fleet, with the main gun either a 5" OR just a 30mm DS30 mk2 nothing new (would be interesting to upgrade all to Seahawk Sigma with 7 cell launcher for LMM/Starstreak).

There was a brief mention of a BMT Venator 120(or may have been 125) though was in reference to the American FFGX design could be interesting as a batch 2 design.

[dmereifield]

Why not reuse the 4.5" guns from the T23s? It's the cheapest option and doesn't introduce new logistical issues. I know we want to phase them out but they will be in the fleet via the T45s for the best part of 2 decades anyway. By the time they are retired along with the T45s, if the NSBS is to be believed, we would be selling off the T31s then anyway. If we do intend to keep the T31s we could replace the guns as part of a mid life refit later when (hopefully) funds might not be so tight

[abc123]

Any why not? There's nothing bad in that...

It cost Oman £400m for 3 of them, £133m each. It is great news since the Leander is slightly enlarged mostly to give it a mission bay which is a scaled down version of the type 26s, and they are getting most of their armament free from the type 23. They were also built in the UK. Gives you a little hope that the type 31 will fit in the £250m price bracket and be fairly decent.

Yep.

But don't worry, I'm sure that BAE and MoD will somehow find a way that they will cost at least 500 millions at the end... Like Type 26...

[benny14]

500 millions

Only double? I would go with triple.

[PAUL MARSAY]

What is that missile silo amidships ?

[Ron5]

they have sea wolf radar tracker on top of bridge in that image. i suspect it will be 2 x 12 camm in front.

"STING-EO Mk2, Thales’s lightweight dual band (I and K) weapon control system, supports gun fire control, performs kill assessment and makes a valuable contribution to classification and identification of threats. In addition, the system can be used as a surveillance sensor, even under radar silence conditions"

As fitted on El Khareef corvettes.

[Ron5]

I still like the look of the BMT Venator 110, and would like to see it be developed and built.
Cannot see the point in not having at least a Merlin flight deck and a Merlin + UAV hangar.
Should use same equipment as the rest of the RN fleet, with the main gun either a 5" OR just a 30mm DS30 mk2 nothing new (would be interesting to upgrade all to Seahawk Sigma with 7 cell launcher for LMM/Starstreak).

There was a brief mention of a BMT Venator 120(or may have been 125) though was in reference to the American FFGX design could be interesting as a batch 2 design.

Venator 110 grew to 117m but they did not change the name.

[abc123]

500 millions

Only double? I would go with triple.

No, no, just double. Type 26 was supposed to cost 300-500 mil., it now costs 800-900 mil., so, rule of thumb would be: the number MoD claims x 2.

[Tempest414]

If Arrowhead 120 wins out for type 31 do we see Alppedore shipyard as the assembly point as it is just completing the last of 4 Samuel Beckett class 90m OPV's ( for 279 million euros with main armament ) it is also where the Echo class were built and HMS Scott so has built ships for the RN in the past and is keeping it hand in at this time. It also the team at Devonport not far away

[ArmChairCivvy]

it is also where the Echo class were built and HMS Scott so has built ships for the RN in the past and is keeping it hand in at this time

Does it work well, having the the hull sitting there diagonally?

More seriously:

indications from both teams that ASW is a consideration

+

Lets not forget the whole sentence "More than 20 potential markets. Supply chain needs to offer variety of capabilities to be competitive. Anti submarine key."

+

In other words, because RN/MOD is spending only half the cost of FTI, if T31e is useful at least a half of FTI, it is "a good buy", for sure.

... err, the whole of life costs? Like the crewing, the most expensive bit?
+

we might end up with something equivalent to ca. £350 for each FF

Let's not forget the subsidy that flows from buying "everything" new for the first 3 T-26s
- that prgrm is so way over budget, that
- one could easily see that as as "doubling down" and coming out squeky clean & smelling of roses from the next prgrm... Lessons Learnt!?

[Tempest414]

it is also where the Echo class were built and HMS Scott so has built ships for the RN in the past and is keeping it hand in at this time

Does it work well, having the the hull sitting there diagonally?

More seriously:

indications from both teams that ASW is a consideration

+

Lets not forget the whole sentence "More than 20 potential markets. Supply chain needs to offer variety of capabilities to be competitive. Anti submarine key."

+

In other words, because RN/MOD is spending only half the cost of FTI, if T31e is useful at least a half of FTI, it is "a good buy", for sure.

... err, the whole of life costs? Like the crewing, the most expensive bit?
+

we might end up with something equivalent to ca. £350 for each FF

Let's not forget the subsidy that flows from buying "everything" new for the first 3 T-26s
- that prgrm is so way over budget, that
- one could easily see that as as "doubling down" and coming out squeky clean & smelling of roses from the next prgrm... Lessons Learnt!?

diagonally what are you on about HMS Scott is 131m by 21m