Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[benny14]

Yup. Do people really think a Wildcat or Merlin carrying a Martlet (5 Mile range) or a Sea Venom (12 Mile range) which are designed for destroying small and medium sized vessels no bigger than a corvette are a match for even a corvette or a frigate carrying ASMs with a range of up to 400 Miles and AA missiles with a range of 25 Miles?

Not Equipping the Type 31 with ASM missiles is to basically say they are incapable of ship-ship combat and in any future conflict we should basically disregard them and rely on the 6 type 45s and 8 type 26s. There role is a pure low-medium intensity piracy/security role which are at the moment are been carried out by even RFA vessels with 30mm guns. I know this is to free up the type 26s but even so, we are drasically decreasing the navies ability to fight.

[marktigger]

strike me very much like the type 21 updated to meet some of the modern threats. But the 21's had exocet and whilst not the best in the world seacat. Hopefully these ships will apply the lessons hard learnt about survivability and will have a good sensor package.

[RetroSicotte]

Really? Seems like a great option with the Wildcat building upon a battle proven model. Air power is the real power at sea, being the only way to get beyond the tiny sphere of influence dictated by the horizon line. Being able to see further than the opponent gives a distinct advantage.

Tie that together with some drones, and we're doing real well.

Not when the considered standard first rate naval option is to launch massive waves of long range anti-ship missiles. With many of them having numerous hundreds of KM ranges at supersonic speeds, the time it takes to launch the Wildcat, let it travel to the area, evade being spotted on the way, find a good place to start preparing to launch, launching its 2 missiles, then returning to ship to rearm and reload will both take hours more and have very few munitions launched.

Compare to a ship using the same information from AEW that instead launches 8+ long range ASMs and provides a much longer range, much better resistance to opposing SAM, doesn't involve flying a manned helo right into range of pretty much every anti-air munition out there, much faster response, much more deadly munitions and retaining the Wildcat to carry out other tasks.

It is madness to claim that having only a Wildcat with 2 Sea Venoms for all anti-ship operations against a peer opponent is anything short of ridiculous.

[shark bait]

That's a well developed opponent your referring to there. For that we have a big ass carrier with 20+ F35 on board, that trumps any other surface unit that doesn't have and american flag on it.

The Wildcat is there for taking on the numerous coastal navies around the world, the ones with no, or a very basic ability to target over the horizon. In such a scenario it will be a highly effective tool.

Worth remembering these missiles with impressive spec sheets are only as good as harpoon without some advanced intelligence assets forward positioned. That's something few forces have, and even fewer organically to the surface fleet.

[marktigger]

even a medium level opponent would have the capability to take on a 31.

If we look at the capability of argentina in 82 and put it up against a type 31 as we are seeing it the 31 would struggle.

Yes the arguments about Argentina's current military status will come up but over the lifespan of these vessels there will be other nations with similar capabilities and who knows who wie will end up opposing. If 18 months ago someone had mentioned the Royal Navy even having to consider taking on North Korea on this forum they would have been laughed at!

[RetroSicotte]

That's a well developed opponent your referring to there. For that we have a big ass carrier with 20+ F35 on board, that trumps any other surface unit that doesn't have and american flag on it.

The Wildcat is there for taking on the numerous coastal navies around the world, the ones with no, or a very basic ability to target over the horizon. In such a scenario it will be a highly effective tool.

Worth remembering these missiles with impressive spec sheets are only as good as harpoon without some advanced intelligence assets forward positioned. That's something few forces have, and even fewer organically to the surface fleet.

This is yet another case of "everyone else in the world is doing something, but the UK isn't and somehow tries to pass it off as just knowing better."

There's a reason that all major navies are investing in or at the very least retaining ASM capability. The UK doesn't know something they don't.

Lets move this to the escorts thread, anyway.

[clinch]

That's a well developed opponent your referring to there. For that we have a big ass carrier with 20+ F35 on board, that trumps any other surface unit that doesn't have and american flag on it.

The Wildcat is there for taking on the numerous coastal navies around the world, the ones with no, or a very basic ability to target over the horizon. In such a scenario it will be a highly effective tool.

Worth remembering these missiles with impressive spec sheets are only as good as harpoon without some advanced intelligence assets forward positioned. That's something few forces have, and even fewer organically to the surface fleet.

Will the F35 have any anti-ship capability?

[Defiance]

Will the F35 have any anti-ship capability?

Not currently planned for the UK. We'll have SPEAR3 which won't be as good in that role as people believe.

[Caribbean]

Not Equipping the Type 31 with ASM missiles

Adaptable: Target and engage surface vessels with long range, ship-launched anti-ship missiles.
Though it looks as if we will not have any ASuW missiles in service when the T31 (and the T26) comes into service, so somewhat academic until that is remedied

Not when the considered standard first rate naval option is to launch massive waves of long range anti-ship missiles.

Quite often launched from sub-700t Missile boats equipped with manpad-based air defences (that includes the Russians) - exactly what Sea Venom is designed to counter. Martlett is more for force protection against FIACs in the littoral. Horses for courses.

and whilst not the best in the world seacat

Understatement of the century. Arguably the cause of the T21s poor reputation - an obsolete system grafted on at the last minute, that was pretty much all the top weight that the T21 could manage. The outcome would have been radically different had the T21 had a functional air defence system (even Phalanx would have made a major difference)

even a medium level opponent would have the capability to take on a 31

As is often pointed out, like other navies, the T31 is unlikely to be placed in that position without other resources to assist it

[benny14]

Do not forget that "Adaptable" means that the platform should be capable of that for the export market. The most likely case is we only get the "Core" requirements.

[Caribbean]

Do not forget that "Adaptable" means that the platform should be capable of that for the export market. The most likely case is we only get the "Core" requirements.

The other way around. Core is for the first batch (for the RN to operate as demonstrators and which may be sold directly out of service, as in the French model). Adaptable is the RNs requirements for later batches (assuming the first batch sell, of course).

[The Armchair Soldier]

This is the thread for discussing Type 31 news. Take it to the escorts thread for more generalised discussions.

http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php ... start=3855

[Ron5]

Full screen preview.jpg

Not seen this before: Bae's Type 31 concept.

[benny14]

Ron, what is the source for that picture? I have not saw a version with the CIWIS on other than the most recent nightime one.

[Ron5]

Ron, what is the source for that picture? I have not saw a version with the CIWIS on other than the most recent nightime one.

Bae

[benny14]

Ron, what is the source for that picture? I have not saw a version with the CIWIS on other than the most recent nightime one.

Bae

... I know its BAE. I mean the source, like the article or web page it is from. Just interested in any attached information as I have not saw that picture before and I have done alot of reading on the type 31. Thanks.

[Ron5]

Ron, what is the source for that picture? I have not saw a version with the CIWIS on other than the most recent nightime one.

Bae

... I know its BAE. I mean the source, like the article or web page it is from. Just interested in any attached information as I have not saw that picture before and I have done alot of reading on the type 31. Thanks.

Bae, no text.

[Repulse]

Going back to the BAE / Cammell Liard team up for the T31e, I actually think this is the best option. Puts "complex" shipbuilding capability back in England, but should be based on a real but evolved ship design. If the government was smart they would in parallel go for the Venari through the Babcock/BMT partnership. If they could do this at scale (say 15 of each) plus another T26 then it would really be a renaissance of UK shipbuilding capability and the RN. Sounds expensive (say £500mn per year) but if costs are controlled, more than possible in a restructured defence budget.

[marktigger]

Going back to the BAE / Cammell Liard team up for the T31e, I actually think this is the best option. Puts "complex" shipbuilding capability back in England,

would prefer it to be Babcocks at Appledore

[The Armchair Soldier]

Please Read Before Posting:
To prevent important news items from being bogged down by general discussion, we have decided to split this topic. This topic will now be used for news only. You are encouraged to post news in this thread - as well as discuss it - but please do not allow your discussions to meander onto other topics and keep speculation to a minimum.

For general discussion, please use the newly-created Current & Future Escorts - General Discussion topic. Within that topic, you may discuss the Type 31 more broadly, as well as the current and future escort fleet in general.

Please Private Message an administrator if you need further clarification on these changes.

I have had to move a whole page's worth of posts to the escorts general discussion thread. Please stick to using this thread for Type 31 news.

[Ron5]

Going back to the BAE / Cammell Liard team up for the T31e, I actually think this is the best option. Puts "complex" shipbuilding capability back in England, but should be based on a real but evolved ship design.

There's no doubt that basing the design on an existing ship is the cheapest and lowest risk way to go. Given the bad choices available, I agree this is the least worse.

[sunstersun]

I'm hoping the Type 31 bucks the trend with UK's naval export record.

[marktigger]

I'm hoping the Type 31 bucks the trend with UK's naval export record.

by being delivered on time to spec and on budget?

[marktigger]

I do hope the lessons of the Type21 will be remembered and the hard relearned lessons from 1982 as well.

[Repulse]

I hope we relearn the value of numbers and not just focus on a small number of top end ships.