Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[RetroSicotte]

Decent radar, medium gun, 32x SAM, ASW hull sonar, FFBNW towed sonar, 2x torpedo stations, 8x ASM, Merlin capable hangar, acoustically quietened, CODLAG, 30mm stations/

It would ideally have that towed sonar fitted, but a T23 GP time period equivilent would still be entirely useful and easily capable of giving the RN something it can utilise as it has anti-air, anti-ship, anti-submarine capabilities.

This new ship is very very likely to just have a small amount of CAMM, a non-ASW specialised hull sonar and a gun with a Merlin flight deck (but not hangar). If we're very lucky, some promise of FFBNW Mk41. But I wouldn't hope hard with that sort of pricing in this country.

[james k]

Why is this bad news? £250 Million is a lot of money and a price cap prevents BAe from doing it's usual trick of adding to the cost just for the Hell of it. With some systems and weapons salvaged from the Type 23's essentially being free, aside from the cost of maintenance and instillation, £250 Million for a per hull seems fairly generous (unless you'r a BAe shareholder). At £140 Million for a River 2 for the RN and 66 Million Euros for the Irish Navies Samuel Beckett (built in the UK) or $300M for a USCG Heritage Class Offshore Patrol Cutter, then the £250 Million price tag for a Type 31 should see a reasonable size vessel, with high levels of performance and survivability and a capability similar to that of the upgraded Type 23 the equipment from which is also to be used on the Type 26. What's the problem with that?

This is what the USCG have ordered for a similar cost and that includes weapons and electronic systems.
https://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/opc/pdf/OPC ... 036x24.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... pbuilding/

If this is true, some bad news....the order is for 5 hulls and the cost will be capped at £250 million per hull.....

[dmereifield]

Decent radar, medium gun, 32x SAM, ASW hull sonar, FFBNW towed sonar, 2x torpedo stations, 8x ASM, Merlin capable hangar, acoustically quietened, CODLAG, 30mm stations/

It would ideally have that towed sonar fitted, but a T23 GP time period equivilent would still be entirely useful and easily capable of giving the RN something it can utilise as it has anti-air, anti-ship, anti-submarine capabilities.

This new ship is very very likely to just have a small amount of CAMM, a non-ASW specialised hull sonar and a gun with a Merlin flight deck (but not hangar). If we're very lucky, some promise of FFBNW Mk41. But I wouldn't hope hard with that sort of pricing in this country.

Thanks for the prompt and useful response. I know I'm being optimistic, again, but is it not at least slightly possible that we may get something close to what you describe as a T23 replacement, *if* the £250 million price cap is the build cost only.and if we assume that most of the kit is being recycled from T23 upgrades, as follows:

Decent radar, check (from T23)
medium gun, check (will need to purchase from the £250)
32x SAM, check (from T23; maybe only 24 due to limited space)
ASW hull sonar, check (from T23)
FFBNW towed sonar, (possibly, depending on design selected, might even get 3 considering the new buys for the T26)
2x torpedo stations, ok it won't have these, neither does the T45 or T26...
8x ASM, the T23 GPs will.lose this also unless there is a replacement for Harpoon...if there is, o's it not feasible to port that across to the T31, assuming space in the design (would assume there would be space given export likely requirement)
Merlin capable hangar, could be in the winning design
acoustically quietened, likely not, but it may possibly have the TAS from the T26 buy
CODLAG, no idea....
30mm stations, will be on the T31 (mew or dfeom the T23)

Collectively, it might still be possible to get something resembling what you described...hopefully?!?

[SKB]

T31e ? (Spartan)

"The 2017 National Shipbuilding Strategy proposes in order to maintain national shipbuilding capacity the ordering of an initial batch of five Type 31e Frigates to be completed by 2023 intended for export with their cost limited to £250m each to be followed by a second batch order of Type 31 for the Royal Navy's own use, the Type 31e would be built in modular form as with the Queen Elizabeth class carriers at several commercial shipyards and assembled in one central yard."

[Caribbean]

This is screaming "OPV with some CAMMs on it". I

For comparison, the Vard 7s cost around £30,000/tonne. This budget gives £62500/tonne for a 4000t vessel - not far short of the £66,666/tonne ($100,000/tonne at the long-term average exchange rate of $1.50 to the £) average for building frigates.

Edit: Also - stop considering what the RN wants and think about what a foreign navy is likely to want - AAW (missiles, CIWS), ASW (TA, HMS, torpedos, helicopter), ASuW (main gun, anti-ship missiles), VLS, RHIBs, hangars etc, etc - unless it can fit all of those (quite possibly at the same time), it's not going to sell.

[xav]

UK Unveils Ambitious New National Shipbuilding Strategy with Type 31 Frigates

British Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon has unveiled an ambitious new National Shipbuilding Strategy which meets the challenge set by Sir John Parker last November and sets out plans for the first batch of Type 31e frigates.

Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon explained the 1st batch will consist of 5 vessel for in service by 2023. The Type 31 will allow the Type 26 Frigates and Type 45 Destroyers to focus on maritime task groups. All shipyard across the UK will be able to bid for the Type 31 program.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... gates.html

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

The wording in SKB's post has got me...5 Type 31e to be built for export a 2023 in service date, to be followed by a second batch of Type 31s for the RN? Does this imply the first catch of 5 are being built speculatively, and not for RN service? If so, the passage also implies that it is these first five vessels that will be subject to the price cap?

Is the extract straight out of the NSS? I haven't had the chance to read any of it directly yet...If the wording is accurate, what is to be made of it??

[RetroSicotte]

Thanks for the prompt and useful response. I know I'm being optimistic, again, but is it not at least slightly possible that we may get something close to what you describe as a T23 replacement, *if* the £250 million price cap is the build cost only.and if we assume that most of the kit is being recycled from T23 upgrades, as follows:

Decent radar, check (from T23)
medium gun, check (will need to purchase from the £250)
32x SAM, check (from T23; maybe only 24 due to limited space)
ASW hull sonar, check (from T23)
FFBNW towed sonar, (possibly, depending on design selected, might even get 3 considering the new buys for the T26)
2x torpedo stations, ok it won't have these, neither does the T45 or T26...
8x ASM, the T23 GPs will.lose this also unless there is a replacement for Harpoon...if there is, o's it not feasible to port that across to the T31, assuming space in the design (would assume there would be space given export likely requirement)
Merlin capable hangar, could be in the winning design
acoustically quietened, likely not, but it may possibly have the TAS from the T26 buy
CODLAG, no idea....
30mm stations, will be on the T31 (mew or dfeom the T23)

Collectively, it might still be possible to get something resembling what you described...hopefully?!?

I wish I shared your hope, and I would be delighted to see an update and be able to go "Thank goodness I was completely wrong about this." So I hope for the RN's sake that you're absolutely right.

The Type 45 lacking torpedoes doesn't mean these ones shouldn't either. (T26 likely gets ASROC) Same with the Type 23 and Type 45 losing their ASMs, that doesn't mean these ones should too and that it shouldn't be a requirement of the design.

If the liekly design is struggling to even reach parity with modern equivilents to a Type 23 GP's fit, let alone Type 23 ASW, then there is a severe problem at a core level with this design. The world doesn't sit still around us, unfortunately, and right now the UK needs to have a strong base level more than ever, especially in regards to ASW with the Type 45 almost completely incapable of it.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Navy recognition says
It announces the government’s plan to procure new Type 31e General Purpose Frigates. A price cap has been set of no more than £250M each for the first batch of five frigates. In line with standing UK policy on warships they will be built in the UK. They could be built in a way which could see them shared between yards and assembled at a central hub. The first ships are set to be in service by 2023. Shipyards will be encouraged to work with global partners to ensure the vessel is competitive on the export market.

In other words,
- yes they say the 5 vessels as the first batch
- but they also say it is for RN, and the first ship will to be in service by 2023

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... gates.html

[bobp]

"The 2017 National Shipbuilding Strategy proposes in order to maintain national shipbuilding capacity the ordering of an initial batch of five Type 31e Frigates to be completed by 2023 intended for export with their cost limited to £250m each to be followed by a second batch order of Type 31 for the Royal Navy's own use, the Type 31e would be built in modular form as with the Queen Elizabeth class carriers at several commercial shipyards and assembled in one central yard."

What the heck! Where has this nonsense come from?????

[donald_of_tokyo]

I wish I shared your hope, and I would be delighted to see an update and be able to go "Thank goodness I was completely wrong about this." So I hope for the RN's sake that you're absolutely right.

The Type 45 lacking torpedoes doesn't mean these ones shouldn't either. (T26 likely gets ASROC) Same with the Type 23 and Type 45 losing their ASMs, that doesn't mean these ones should too and that it shouldn't be a requirement of the design.

Torpedo tubes are very cheap assets. Adding it later on is very easy, and also export version will surely have it. So, I am not much concerned. By the way, ship-torpedo-defence-system (soft-kill) is much more important. I hope it will be listed in the requirement.

If the liekly design is struggling to even reach parity with modern equivilents to a Type 23 GP's fit, let alone Type 23 ASW, then there is a severe problem at a core level with this design. The world doesn't sit still around us, unfortunately, and right now the UK needs to have a strong base level more than ever, especially in regards to ASW with the Type 45 almost completely incapable of it.

Then why not disband or mothball PoW and shift those resource to ASW vessels? If the ASW threat is considered to be sever, this will be the good answer.

No, RN did not select that way. T31e not much capable of ASW is just a result of RN's selection of choice = setting priority (money and man-power) on 2 CVFs to come. With much improved strike capability, standing tasks can be covered with ships with reduced capability. This idea itself has no problem, though of course not free from criticisms.

Again, I think getting 1 more T26 and letting the other 4 hulls to be just a River "B3" Patrol ship, will be my best choice. But, if 5 T31e are to come, I am still open for what kind of proposal shall come out, while I guess it will never be as capable as a T23GP-mod.

[Pymes75]

Links to the actual NSS documents if anyone hasn't read them yet:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... lowres.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... tsheet.pdf

[Pymes75]

Quick highlights:

Chapter 2:

56. The 5 Type 23 general purpose frigates will be
replaced with a class of Type 31e general purpose
frigates. The first will be in service by 2023 and
we require each new ship to come in at 12 month
intervals. Type 31e will enable us to grow the size
of the frigate force. The Government will set no
upper limit on the number of Type 31es that will
be introduced to the Fleet; this will be a decision
for future Governments.

60. The Type 31e Procurement Strategy seeks to draw
on private sector expertise in affordability and
keeping to schedule, whilst building capacity in
the client function to hold the supplier to account.
The competitive approach will employ a series of
short phases in order to refine the requirement
specification early in the procurement cycle and
through a streamlined assurance and approvals
process. The competition to select a design for
Type 31e will begin in the Autumn. We plan to
make a Main Gate investment decision in Q4 2018
and commence build in early 2019. We are aiming
for the first Type 31e to be in service in 2023 to
coincide with the departure from service of the
first general purpose Type 23.

61. We have set a maximum £250 million per
ship price for the Type 31e, as we judge that
the capabilities that the UK requires can be
accommodated within this limit and that beyond
this price the ships would not be attractive to
the sector of the export market we are targeting.
Industry will be challenged to propose a design
and build strategy that can meet the funding
requirements and the timetable for build,
whilst ensuring the vessel will be equipped
to undertake its critical patrol and presence
functions as a key component of the Royal Navy’s
surface fleet. If Industry proves unable to meet
the challenge, we will revise our plans.

62. Exportability will be driven into the ship through
a competitive price and a capability that
meets already identified potential customer
requirements. Work has been undertaken with
overseas navies to understand their future
requirements and this input will be built into
the specification from the outset. It is envisaged
that, regardless of customer, the Type 31e will be
sufficiently adaptable to fulfil a variety of roles. As
such the approach to procuring the ship has been
developed to ensure the basic design is conducive
to open architecture, future modifications and the
choice to add weapons and/or sensors.

[RetroSicotte]

Then why not disband or mothball PoW and shift those resource to ASW vessels? If the ASW threat is considered to be sever, this will be the good answer.

Because both highly capable escorts and carrier strike are both enormously important assets, cutting PoW would be just as disastrous. "Just cut this instead" is never the answer, all you get then is more cuts in the end.

No, RN did not select that way. T31e not much capable of ASW is just a result of RN's selection of choice = setting priority (money and man-power) on 2 CVFs to come. With much improved strike capability, standing tasks can be covered with ships with reduced capability. This idea itself has no problem, though of course not free from criticisms.

The RN didn't choose to drop the budget to a pathetic level.

Anyway, we can go on to this in another topic, I think we're on the cusp of back and forth in a news only one.

[marktigger]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41175094

think they are pissing in the wind over this one

[marktigger]

And are they addressing the elephant in the room.........having 5 frigates built is one thing along side the 8 type 26 crewing them is a completely different issue or does the government suspect the economey will nose dive making joining the armed forces appealling?

[Spinflight]

And are they addressing the elephant in the room.........having 5 frigates built is one thing along side the 8 type 26 crewing them is a completely different issue or does the government suspect the economey will nose dive making joining the armed forces appealling?

Fallon announced an extra 400 bods to crew the new ships.

Whilst the report itself is a bit light there's some interesting stuff in there. No reprieve for the River Batch 1s and the first Type 26 will only enter service in 2026! Even if that was January the 1st does it really take 7 1/2 years to build a tub? Are they paid by the hour?

Also in the SJP recommendations, which admittedly I'll have to check against the original, there seems to be the suggestion that the 'virtual shipbuilders' could get work on blocks for the latter Type 26s. I don't recall this from the report. This will not be music to Baes ears...

The economics are interesting too. Effectively the Treasury has accepted that investing in ships is a bit like QE. For every 100 shipyard jobs there's another 60 odd produced plus a ( confusingly smaller) drop in claims for JSA etc. One of SJP's recommendations was that an extra £250m a year would pay for itself, clearly they've crunched the figures through Mori and come to a similar conclusion, though whether that is more or less ( I suspect a bit more) is open to debate.

The SNP MP's were, shall we say a little bit miffed? Basically demanded that the Government guarantee the work to the Clyde, though Fallon merely pointed out that they were open to bid for it. My guess would be that Baes hosted a cocktail party recently.

Not sure about the idea that only the second batch will be for the RN. All will go into service, though as clean sheets ( FFBNWs) which can be customised to an export configuration and therefore sold from under the RN's feet.

Which makes a lot of sense. If they can bring them in for £250m then I think the RN would be ordering some number of them.

I think it's alluding more to the idea of getting the tubs in the water, with an eye to selling them, with the replacements being more capable or modified designs.

As for cost and the 'all aboard the outrage bus' of £250m frigates, I think the shipyards will surprise us. Think of the entire idea as a way of highlighting how inefficient the Clyde yards are ( odd for a monopoly). What happens if a T31 is in the water on budget several years before the first T26 at four times the price? In other words if Baes don't get their act together they stand to have an awful lot to lose. Whatever design is chosen they'll likely be bidding on individual blocks or fitting out just as any other yard will be. It would be humiliating never mind financially disadvantageous not to win any part of the work.

Still can't see past the Avenger...

[matt00773]

...and the first Type 26 will only enter service in 2026! Even if that was January the 1st does it really take 7 1/2 years to build a tub? Are they paid by the hour?

This also caught my eye. The QEC (70K tonnes) had it's first steel cut on July 2009 and now we see it on acceptance trials in 2017 and with a possible IOC next year. The first T45 first destroyer had first steel cut in March 2003, launched in 2006, and commissioned in 2009 - and this was with newly developed propulsion system and radar/PAAMS systems.

I find it hard to believe that a 7K tonne T26, with all the risk mitigation that has taken place with weapons and power systems, would take a whopping 9 years! I would expect this to be well and truly operational by 2023.

[marktigger]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-41174619

[Jake1992]

...and the first Type 26 will only enter service in 2026! Even if that was January the 1st does it really take 7 1/2 years to build a tub? Are they paid by the hour?

This also caught my eye. The QEC (70K tonnes) had it's first steel cut on July 2009 and now we see it on acceptance trials in 2017 and with a possible IOC next year. The first T45 first destroyer had first steel cut in March 2003, launched in 2006, and commissioned in 2009 - and this was with newly developed propulsion system and radar/PAAMS systems.

I find it hard to believe that a 7K tonne T26, with all the risk mitigation that has taken place with weapons and power systems, would take a whopping 9 years! I would expect this to be well and truly operational by 2023.

It also makes no sence as each T26 is meant to come in every 2 years, if the first isn't ready till 2026 the 8th won't be ready till around 2040 well after the OSD for the last T23

[Spinflight]

Does rather reinforce the idea, which caused some fury on Tracey Island, that certain yards were holding a gun to their own heads.

Time is money and if you build them as slowly as you can they end up costing. China is chucking out 4 or 5 frigates a year, can't be arsed looking but they're not taking that long.

BMT launched another design the other day, basically for a mine sweeper light frigate hybrid, which the Frogs are also looking at. I'd be guessing bonus marks if a T31 could also fulfill the upcoming MHC requirement.

Nice to know that they finally have a 30 year plan. Thought that was one of the no brainer SJP ideas which rather shocked by the apparent lack of a current one.

[matt00773]

It also makes no sence as each T26 is meant to come in every 2 years, if the first isn't ready till 2026 the 8th won't be ready till around 2040 well after the OSD for the last T23

Well the NSS states that T26s will come every 15-18 months. This means that by 2026 there will be quite a number of T26s at various stages of development and does not ring true to the process outlined by BAES.

On the T31, another thing I picked up from the NSS is that the government have already done a lot of ground work on assessing prospective export markets and operational requirements for these. Putting a framework for prioritising these and feeding this into a design will still be a challenge however and the 2019 date for start of build is highly optimistic. Working with many more stakeholders from across industry - all with different competing approaches and skill levels - may also prove more difficult than described in the NSS.

[SKB]

Time to cancel the thread poll then eh?!

[marktigger]

Time to cancel the thread poll then eh?!

they aren't in the water yet

[FuNsTeR]

It also makes no sence as each T26 is meant to come in every 2 years, if the first isn't ready till 2026 the 8th won't be ready till around 2040 well after the OSD for the last T23

i can't see us build 8 type 26, i think the maximum we will build is probably 4 or 5 and the rest of the frigate fleet based on type 31s