Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[Ron5]

Sir Michael Fallon to pit BAE Systems and Babcock International against each other in bid battle for frigates
John Collingridge

September 3 2017, 12:01am, The Sunday Times
BAE’s illustration of what the Type 31 general purpose light frigate could look like
BAE’s illustration of what the Type 31 general purpose light frigate could look like
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The Ministry of Defence is poised to give the green light to a new class of warship when it publishes a long-delayed national shipbuilding strategy.

On Thursday, Defence secretary Sir Michael Fallon is expected to launch a competition to build the new Type 31e frigate, pitting defence giants BAE Systems and Babcock International against each other.

The new warship, which is expected to cost between £250m and £350m apiece, was the central recommendation of a report by industrialist Sir John Parker last year on how to sustain what remains of Britain’s naval shipbuilding.

The former boss of Belfast shipyard Harland and Wolff recommended the cut-price warship be built by yards in the UK, rather than concentrated in the hands of BAE on the Clyde. The frigate is intended to be cheaper, more versatile and, crucially, attractive to overseas navies. Fallon is also likely to sanction the construction of three “fleet solid-support ships”.

Babcock’s Rosyth yard on the Forth is seen as a potential site for assembly of the new frigates. Naval chiefs are thought to want the first vessel to arrive in 2023.

[Ron5]

I don't think the last sentence is a misstatement.

[dmereifield]

I don't think the last sentence is a misstatement.

Hope you're right.

The article doesnt mention number of hulls, but can we assume that the minimum programme budget is therefore 5 x £350 million, which possibly includes the design work....

[Repulse]

If the UK government insists going down the T31 light frigate route (and putting aside enhanced B2 River or Venator 90 for a MHPC ship) then my vote goes for an envolved Khareef. By envolved I mean the same size, but with similar system / survivability changes the RN made for the River, plus 127mm and CAMM integration. Could be designed by BAE/BMT and built by Appledore.

[dmereifield]

If the UK government insists going down the T31 light frigate route (and putting aside enhanced B2 River or Venator 90 for a MHPC ship) then my vote goes for an envolved Khareef. By envolved I mean the same size, but with similar system / survivability changes the RN made for the River, plus 127mm and CAMM integration. Could be designed by BAE/BMT and built by Appledore.

My guess is that a Khareef derivative must be the closest thing to "off the shelf" and must be the most cost effective starting point. The cost of the Khareef's and the River B2's seem reasonable for a base hull (ca. £130 million) if we are aiming to hit £250-£350 million per hull. However, from what I can see online, the Khareef lacks a hull mounted sonar, so once you add that, the 5" gun, the enhanced RN survivability specs, greater endurance..."you're going to need a bigger boat"...which is what the Avenger design is....

So let's say that the base hull is ca. £150 million, can we purchase a main gun, new engines (of whichever flavour), and integrate all of the T23 harvested sensors, weapons, decoys etc from the T23s with the remaining £100-200million available per hull?

[Dahedd]

Better to pick the Venator 110 or the Spartan. Breaks the BAE monopoly. Plus the Khareefs won't meet UK crew accommodation standards

[dmereifield]

Better to pick the Venator 110 or the Spartan. Breaks the BAE monopoly. Plus the Khareefs won't meet UK crew accommodation standards

They look much better to me, and seem to be the preferred options for those with more knowledge and experience, but are they affordable with the mooted budget of £250-£350 million? Doesn't seem likely.....

[Repulse]

What we need to do is to avoid losing hull numbers by spending unnecessary money on design when there is one there already and it is in the water.

Different story if we were going down the MHPC route but there seems to be a lack of political vision.

[clinch]

If the UK government insists going down the T31 light frigate route (and putting aside enhanced B2 River or Venator 90 for a MHPC ship) then my vote goes for an envolved Khareef. By envolved I mean the same size, but with similar system / survivability changes the RN made for the River, plus 127mm and CAMM integration. Could be designed by BAE/BMT and built by Appledore.

My guess is that a Khareef derivative must be the closest thing to "off the shelf" and must be the most cost effective starting point. The cost of the Khareef's and the River B2's seem reasonable for a base hull (ca. £130 million) if we are aiming to hit £250-£350 million per hull. However, from what I can see online, the Khareef lacks a hull mounted sonar, so once you add that, the 5" gun, the enhanced RN survivability specs, greater endurance..."you're going to need a bigger boat"...which is what the Avenger design is....

So let's say that the base hull is ca. £150 million, can we purchase a main gun, new engines (of whichever flavour), and integrate all of the T23 harvested sensors, weapons, decoys etc from the T23s with the remaining £100-200million available per hull?

Why not just order Khareefs rather than fannying around re-designing them. The Omanis got three plus support package for £400 million. We'll have six, leaving change for an extra Type 26.

[Timmymagic]

Could be designed by BAE/BMT and built by Appledore.

Could they? I thought the Samuel Beckett were the largest thing they could build at Appledore. Anything larger and it won't fit.

[Rambo]

Could be designed by BAE/BMT and built by Appledore.

Could they? I thought the Samuel Beckett were the largest thing they could build at Appledore. Anything larger and it won't fit.

wasnt hms Scott built at Appledore at 131 long?

[james k]

They built HMS Scott at 9,000 tons

[Repulse]

They built HMS Scott which is longer but was hanging out of the covered dock. Echos were 90m so an extra 9m should be manageable with a little investment. Either that or reopen pompy.

[dmereifield]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... pbuilding/

If this is true, some bad news....the order is for 5 hulls and the cost will be capped at £250 million per hull.....

[Repulse]

Probably just a journo picking up information/chat that's been going on since the BAR bod said they weren't interested to a race to the bottom. Key will be tomorrow and the balance of requirements between survivability vs shiny kit - RN will look more to the former, possible markets IMO the latter.

[clinch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... pbuilding/

If this is true, some bad news....the order is for 5 hulls and the cost will be capped at £250 million per hull.....

"Under the National Shipbuilding Strategy, Britain will buy five “Type 31e” general purpose frigates – a cut-price warship – to bolster the Royal Navy’s depleted fleet, with the first one intended to enter service in 2023."

You have to admire how the press (Number 10's PR unit) spins another cut in capability by its Conservative masters. Can someone explain how replacing 13 first class frigates with eight first class frigates and five bargain basement boats bolsters the fleet?

[dmereifield]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... pbuilding/

If this is true, some bad news....the order is for 5 hulls and the cost will be capped at £250 million per hull.....

"Under the National Shipbuilding Strategy, Britain will buy five “Type 31e” general purpose frigates – a cut-price warship – to bolster the Royal Navy’s depleted fleet, with the first one intended to enter service in 2023."

You have to admire how the press (Number 10's PR unit) spins another cut in capability by its Conservative masters. Can someone explain how replacing 13 first class frigates with eight first class frigates and five bargain basement boats bolsters the fleet?

You'd need to be a politician or a sympathetic journalist to explain that...

[dmereifield]

"The £250m price cap was implemented as it was seen as the optimum price to encourage export orders"

Loving this line too; nothing to do with the fact that we don't have sufficient cash for anything better......

[Repulse]

Fallon due to go Radio 4 in the next hour.

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

He's already been on BBC Breakfast....main points...

- 5 hulls
- cheaper than T26 (fixed price £250m to encourage exports)
- first ship delivered in 2023
- modular construction at various UK yards encouraged
- designed to be 'thrown away' (not his words) and replaced at the end of life rather than have costly refits

As others have said, talking points are all along the lines of 'def budget going up' and 'we're investing in the RN'.

[Defiance]

"The £250m price cap was implemented as it was seen as the optimum price to encourage export orders"

Loving this line too; nothing to do with the fact that we don't have sufficient cash for anything better......

Warning shot towards the Navy too, it's not unknown for multiple design changes to occur after a configuration is agreed upon at the customers request.

[RetroSicotte]

So, the Royal Navy is officially down to 14 escorts then, it seems.

Unless there is some sort of miracle of design for this ship, then that is absolutely humiliating.

Waste of bloody money.

[downsizer]

I don't follow this thread, so are we talking 6x45, 8x26, and 5 of 31?

How does that add up to 14, or are you saying these can't be classed as escorts?

[RetroSicotte]

I don't follow this thread, so are we talking 6x45, 8x26, and 5 of 31?

How does that add up to 14, or are you saying these can't be classed as escorts?

For that budget, do you honestly think the UK's shipbuilding could produce something capable of being considered a proper escort that could survive and be useful in a high stakes conflict? Do we honestly think £250m per ship would get us something even equivilent to the FTI?

Not a chance.

When we look at the FTI with its fixed AESA array, CAPTAS4, Aster-30 missiles, ASMs, Torpedoes, gun and 16 SAMs, that is absolutely capable in its role to be considered an escort. Maybe not as far as FREMM/FREDA, but well worth being useful.

This is screaming "OPV with some CAMMs on it". If we start letting them call that a Royal Navy frigate, then we're only going to be deluding ourselves. At bare minimum this needs to match a Type 23's capabilities with their modern equivilents. (Medium gun, 32x CAMM, 8x ASMs, some form of torpedo, sonar). Add on that increased sonar capabilities are rapidly becoming a must.

We all knew it to start with, but it's continuing to confirm that this is nothing more than a project for "how little can we spend and still use the word frigate top fool people when we give a soundbite that we still have 19 escorts".

[dmereifield]

How do you define an "escort"? For example, why is the GP T23 an escort?

Edit by RS - Sorry, I accidentally edited your posted instead of quoting it, I hope I've restored all you needed.