Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

RetroSicotte
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Okay folks, starting to drift a little. Lets move it to the escorts thread, please. :)

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Yep, like that.

Way more useful than a patrol boat, and if we use the polar ship as a bench mark, fully affordable with the rumoured tight budget.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:It is not the out look, it is the survivability standard. We have 3 choices; escort-comparable survivability hull in small hull ~3000t FL (because that standard is very expensive), or OPV-comparable (RN upgraded = River B2) survivability in a large hull ~4000t FL. Also, Gabrielle-san is proposing to make it more larger with well-dock = much more low survivability, but with big flexibility. The survivability standard is, I think, mentioned in Sir JP's strategy. I understand he think it must be lower in T31 than those for T45/T26s.
- SJP was talking of standards more generally; fit for purpose (mission), but not necessarily always the highest available
shark bait wrote: Small, focused and capable
A 4,000 tonne Venator type Platform with 48 CAMM and CAPTAS 4 Compact.
shark bait wrote:Why not Vard? Because it looks lille more than a coast guard vessel, nothing gives me confidence it will remain relevant over the next through 40 years of RN service.
When we started these discussions the Italian PPA details were already available. But now (xav: Thanks!) there are also the details for the French FTI, Belhara for benchmarking not just capabilities in the 4 kt class, but also flexibility:
http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php ... c2f#p46139
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SKB »

Type 31 news reports only please. ;)

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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Steller Systems offers another option for the Type 31 frigate design

Image

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More images within the link below.
Steller Systems, an independent consultancy specialising in naval architecture, has just announced Project Spartan a design proposal to be considered for the Royal Navy’s Type 31 frigate / GPFF project. To date, BAE Systems has submitted 2 outline proposals and BMT Group have submitted their Venator-110. Here we take a brief look at the competing options for the Type 31 design.
Read More: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/steller ... te-design/

LordJim
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by LordJim »

If we can afford the vessel above I would reduce the T-26 programme to 6 and build as many of these as possible.

Defiance
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Defiance »

LordJim wrote:If we can afford the vessel above I would reduce the T-26 programme to 6 and build as many of these as possible.
I'm just glad to see a suggestion which identifies what'd be cut to fund extra hulls for once!

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malcrf
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by malcrf »

I do like the look of these. A new Leander class perhaps. If only we could get 10+ of these........................order 1 a year and just keep building (like the US with the Arleigh Burkes).

abc123
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

The Armchair Soldier wrote:Steller Systems offers another option for the Type 31 frigate design



More images within the link below.
Steller Systems, an independent consultancy specialising in naval architecture, has just announced Project Spartan a design proposal to be considered for the Royal Navy’s Type 31 frigate / GPFF project. To date, BAE Systems has submitted 2 outline proposals and BMT Group have submitted their Venator-110. Here we take a brief look at the competing options for the Type 31 design.
Read More: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/steller ... te-design/
It seems like a nice ship. So, armament; 1 x 127 mm, 2 x 4 Harpoon, 2 x Mk41 VLS, 1 x Phalanx. Presumably without VDS in RN?
Not bad, but the question is the cost?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

LordJim wrote:If we can afford the vessel above I would reduce the T-26 programme to 6 and build as many of these as possible.
A reasonable path forward.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

The Spartan brochure is interesting to read.

Some points:
- ASW is "picture contributor and light helicopter carrier". I think this means, she will use sonar, covering some part of the sea, but just as one of the contributor. She will provide a Wildcat to carry torpedo, but may be not Merlin.
- AAW is "self defense/point defense", and noted as "Task group escort/Goalkeeper".
Typical way of thinking for light frigate.

- "And optional bow mounted dropdown propulsor" for get-you-home.
Maybe CODLAD power is packed in a single engine room. At least, not mentioned anywhere it is independent drive/engine room (Venator 110 says so)

-"The Nodal Modular Physical Architecture approach to the design allows for configurable options. Each node has the ability to accept different systems; for example a customer may wish to have a simple 30mm Small Calibre Gun system in place of the forward Mk41 VLS, or place a SeaRAM or Phalanx in this position."
Of course, expensive VLS is an option or FFBNW. Good.

Digger22
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

Wouldn't reducing T26 increase unit cost? It just looks like every lesser ship is more expensive than its earlier big brother, T45-T26-...........Just build light T26 hulls 9-13 and in 20 yrs from now it will look cheap!

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Pongoglo »

A nice looking ship and the best design to date in my view but is this 'news', surely we discussed this when the article was first published on Feb 10 ?

CameronPerson
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by CameronPerson »

Do you think we'll find out what design is to be chosen for the Type 31 when we finally see this NSS?

dmereifield
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Digger22 wrote:Wouldn't reducing T26 increase unit cost? It just looks like every lesser ship is more expensive than its earlier big brother, T45-T26-...........Just build light T26 hulls 9-13 and in 20 yrs from now it will look cheap!
Part of the problem with that idea, which makes sense, is that we need to build the T31 concurrently to maintain numbers. It seems we cannot afford to increase the build rate of the T26, so must go with a cheaper concurrent build. Presumably

Digger22
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

Great point. I love the idea of putting T31 'Spartan' into production, giving us a sustainable 'Frigate' factory, just the spectre of cost growth as always, but we need a plan and this design is really exciting.

Spinflight
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Spinflight »

Exciting yes, realistic no.

Budget is about £300m a copy. Expect an OPV with a single 57mm and you won't be disappointed. Dream of mk41s, 5" and even Camm and you probably will be.

Jake1992
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Spinflight we don't know what the budget pet hull is, people keep referring to the £2bn figure in the times that has not been seen anywhere else and if it's for design and build of 6 like said in the article then its contradictory to leaks last year that said the per hull budget was between £330m and £400m.

As it stand we don't have any real idea what the budget is so its all guess work.
But as mentioned on the current and future escort fleet thread a reliable source has said the Spartan design is the leading design and looks likely so the budget must be there for it

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Defiance »

Jake1992 wrote: But as mentioned on the current and future escort fleet thread a reliable source has said the Spartan design is the leading design and looks likely so the budget must be there for it
Leading design for whom? Just out of curiosity. What MOD wants and what the customer wants can vary fairly significantly in some cases.

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shark bait
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

CameronPerson wrote:Do you think we'll find out what design is to be chosen for the Type 31 when we finally see this NSS?
We can hope, but every 'release' of T31 news has just kicked making any solid decisions further and further down the line. The MOD's NSS really should put a solid plan in place, but judging by past performances it will bury the project in more and more studies.
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Jake1992
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Defiance its not me that has the source if you go on the current and firer escort thread and go back a day or two you'll see the post I can't remember who posted it but they said the source is very reliable and has be right meany other times but does not want to lose their job by reveling themselves which is understandable

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:NSS really should put a solid plan in place, but judging by past performances it will bury the project in more and more studies
For once I would be inclined to give the MOD/ RN the benefit of doubt as the required patrol frigate/ OPV mix has been truly shaken up by broader, political developments
- the 200 "fresh" billets transferred from the RM may have something to do with the sum total for the two types emerging (obviously the lighter manned coming on stream much faster). Not to mention that the manning level of whatever T31 design is chosen has become even more crucial/ gained weight as a decision factor.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Spinflight
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Spinflight »

I'm not sure any of the four proposed designs sound too much like what we'll end up with.

A large OPV with no missile armament most likely.

National ship building strategy is likely just around the corner so it might have some firm details.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Spinflight wrote:A large OPV with no missile armament most likely.
I quite like the James Bond bit, where the commander of an already sinking RN vessel says: "One for the Migs"
- there goes the deniability if it were to go into a "Whos Done IT" iteration
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Jake1992 wrote:Defiance its not me that has the source if you go on the current and firer escort thread and go back a day or two you'll see the post I can't remember who posted it but they said the source is very reliable and has be right meany other times but does not want to lose their job by reveling themselves which is understandable
The guy that posted that has a long history of making stuff up.

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