Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[marktigger]

Perhaps you should read the post again thoroughly before sledging it. Mind you I suppose being in possession of such bountiful intellect, corporate wisdom, and a gong from the empire means that you can impose your will over such tawdry things like reality or even the passage of sun, wind, and tide. I guess I will go check on the progress of my levitating potted plant.

Read it again as requested. Not sure what you're trying to say that I missed.

Building any ship in blocks and moving to an erection site is an inefficient and expensive way of building ships which is why nobody does it unless forced to. Especially as the places you intend to build the blocks have zero experience in building complex warships.

As for BMT, they can promise whatever they want, their ship is a couple of CGI, a water tank model, and a pile of paper(s). It can do anything and everything. Fire phasers and fly to the moon.

Thanks for the complements tho. I assume my gong is in the mail.

Particularly when you deliberately exclude the closest Yards to your assembly site or generate a shipyard from nothing in the back yard of the chancellor of exchequeor and run down an existing yard with most of the facilities already existing? And then close down that yard and dismantle the facilities when the carriers are completed!
I wonder how much expense there has been transporting modules from Portsmouth and Appledore to govan and from Portsmouth, Apple dore and Goban to rosyth. How much delay due to weather conditions transporting modules round the north of Scotland? Or phasing of moves and work to eliminate the risk of moving modules in Winter? I do wonder what would have happened had one of the Modules been lost in transit?

[Enigmatically]

I won't comment on the general case, but the QEC situation was very different Mark. Both of the original bidding consortia realised that no one yard could build the carriers. The modular approach was absolutely essential. That is not true of frigates

[shark bait]

Secondly, the T26 & T31 will not be built in parallel, not enough money or sailors.

How are there not enough sailors? both require substantially less than the platforms they replace.

Why not built in parallel? unless they are built in parallel there is absolutely no point in the T31 which only exists to make the ship building program cheaper.

Especially as the places you intend to build the blocks have zero experience in building complex warships.

Like QE?

The block method is inefficient, but to claim there is no experience doing that is wrong. That was done out of necessity over efficiency, not the case this time. The only hope is some increased competition to build the blocks may offset the inefficiencies, but that's a long shot.

Keeping it that way saved £100 million in investment costs

It doesn't actually save shit. Part of the reason why our ships cost so much is outdated infrastructure. Its about time the chaps in Scotland got an indoor factory to build our ship in. Our European friends do that and they have much nicer weather.

Anyhoo, we should get some strong hints about the way forward in a month's time... so for this thread Xmas will come early this year.

Lets hope so, but we thought that about the SDSR, I'd put the odds of it being kicked yet along again quite high.

If BaE is so busy with Type 26, SSS and Type 31 maybe some of the other contracts should go their direction!

I see very little justification for building complex warships elsewhere. The RN struggle to sustain a single complex ship factory, another will only make that worse and cost more money.

As much as you don't like BAE they are the only reasonable option for the T31. I assume Cammell Laird may have a bid at the SSS, it would be nice if they win, they won the polar ship from an international competition so its not unprecedented for a specialist vessel like the SSS.

[RetroSicotte]

Getting a bit far from news chaps, lets move this to the escorts thread,

[Enigmatically]

Getting a bit far from news chaps, lets move this to the escorts thread,

Or the shipbuilding strategy thread in UK defence industry sub-forum?

[RetroSicotte]

Good call, actually. Yeah, that'd be appropriate.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Seconded.

Considering that the only moving parts in the (future) major shipbuilds are T31 and SSS - T26 having been guaranteed for the first 8 of them as for build location - it wasn't in the wrong place, but moving the discussion will hedge nicely for the coming media and comments storm when Sir John Parker (or will the Chancellor steal the show?) will come out with the NSS.
- it will still be a proposal (only)
- hence worth discussing, now and later

[arfah]

7F6E817D-B3A3-4A24-BCA0-7F6BC4B38045.jpeg

4D76A73C-C114-4A6A-AB86-BEE797775729.jpeg

[SDL]

Is that a good price?

[bobp]

As the price rises the number bought will fall unless the Government release more cash.

[shark bait]

Knew that a while ago.

http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php ... 350#p33118

Seems a tad on the low side to me. A tad on the side of just a frigate with CAMM and a gun

[Ron5]

So if the T31 are built other than on Clydeside, the MoD will have to pay for the ships and also for the empty Bae yards and all their staff.

Define "built". BAE already builds "them" at one yard and then the "build" is towed to their other yard for fitting out. Keeping it that way saved £100 million in investment costs (goes into roundation errors if one takes a wider view into the warship building debacle), but I have a hunch that someone (not necessarily within BAE) saw the virtue of separating steel bashingfrom the complex military fitting out.

You are right about the zillions (the past) but can't see why you are advocating the open cheque book for the future, too? I know about "Open Book" approach in Gvmnt Proc, but that is a slightly different method.

Anyhoo, we should get some strong hints about the way forward in a month's time... so for this thread Xmas will come early this year.

Bae wanted the shipyard consolidated at one site for efficiency and long term cost saving. The downside being it would cost more upfront in facilities (staff costs were neutral). The Treasury, as usual, chose short term cost saving over long term efficiency.

Building blocks by one company and shipping to a central site to be assembled by a second company is a hugely different thing than towing a 90% complete ship to a fitting out basin as I suspect, you very well know.

I wasn't aware I was advocating an "open checkbook" strategy. I don't even know what that means.

Your expectations for the NSS are a lot higher than mine. IMO It's a politically inspired document that will be a political document i.e. useless. Well its author will get his lordship so not completely without results.

[Ron5]

BAe have enough on their plate building T26 and possibly the MARS SS if the govt have an outbreak of common sense. Why not allow design and modular build in the yards that have serves QE so well (and T45) and assemble on the Clyde

Exactly

which is one of the reasons other yards should get contracts.

So place the orders with shipyards that have zero experience in building complex warships and ignore the one place the MoD has spent zillions in developing and maintaining exactly that. Cunning plan Baldrick.

Whats next, you're not going to fix your car at the garage that 's been fixing cars for years and has had your business all that time. You'll go to two new guys, opposite ends of the own, who've never fixed a car between them and pay 50% more for them to do it. That makes sooooo much more sense.

there are other yards that build complex warships in the UK and by the latest reports on time to spec and on budget and have despite Brexit received repeat orders from another EU country, If BaE is so busy with Type 26, SSS and Type 31 maybe some of the other contracts should go their direction!

Incorrect. The Irish OPV is not a complex warship. Appledore could no more build a Type 31 than you could in your backyard.

[Ron5]

Secondly, the T26 & T31 will not be built in parallel, not enough money or sailors.

How are there not enough sailors? both require substantially less than the platforms they replace.

Why not built in parallel? unless they are built in parallel there is absolutely no point in the T31 which only exists to make the ship building program cheaper.

Especially as the places you intend to build the blocks have zero experience in building complex warships.

Like QE?

The block method is inefficient, but to claim there is no experience doing that is wrong. That was done out of necessity over efficiency, not the case this time. The only hope is some increased competition to build the blocks may offset the inefficiencies, but that's a long shot.

Keeping it that way saved £100 million in investment costs

It doesn't actually save shit. Part of the reason why our ships cost so much is outdated infrastructure. Its about time the chaps in Scotland got an indoor factory to build our ship in. Our European friends do that and they have much nicer weather.

Anyhoo, we should get some strong hints about the way forward in a month's time... so for this thread Xmas will come early this year.

Lets hope so, but we thought that about the SDSR, I'd put the odds of it being kicked yet along again quite high.

If BaE is so busy with Type 26, SSS and Type 31 maybe some of the other contracts should go their direction!

I see very little justification for building complex warships elsewhere. The RN struggle to sustain a single complex ship factory, another will only make that worse and cost more money.

As much as you don't like BAE they are the only reasonable option for the T31. I assume Cammell Laird may have a bid at the SSS, it would be nice if they win, they won the polar ship from an international competition so its not unprecedented for a specialist vessel like the SSS.

I lack your optimism that the RN has enough trained sailors to simultaneously commission two differently designed frigates.

Yes, I agree the T31 can only be significantly cheaper than the T26 if it is built in parallel at the same yard. But the Treasury will not see it as cheaper, they will only see that 2+ bills for 2+ ships will arrive in the same time period that they wanted 1 ship bill. they will not sign up for that. Remember to the Treasury, the only definition of cheaper is lower annual cost.

Same answer for the 100 million saving on not building the frigate factory. Looks nuts to us but the Treasury only cares about annual costs. If the NSS had any balls, it would say build the factory and reap the dividends down the road. But it won't.

The QE is not really a complex warship. Building CVF blocks by companies inexperienced in naval building was a lot more practical than with a frigate or destroyer.

[Ron5]

Getting a bit far from news chaps, lets move this to the escorts thread,

Wait a doggone minute there cowboy. I was slapped down a few days ago for complaining that speculation about Venator did not belong on a Type 31 news thread. Now speculation about Venator (and building by blocks in different yards is firmly part of their proposal) is off limits???

Pulling your chain a bit but I am a tad confused as to what goes where.

Maybe a new thread on Type 31 candidates? Throw Venator, the BAE twins and the new froggie boat there. You could call it "Frigates the RN should never buy".

[marktigger]

If BaE is so busy with Type 26, SSS and Type 31 maybe some of the other contracts should go their direction!

I see very little justification for building complex warships elsewhere. The RN struggle to sustain a single complex ship factory, another will only make that worse and cost more money.

As much as you don't like BAE they are the only reasonable option for the T31. I assume Cammell Laird may have a bid at the SSS, it would be nice if they win, they won the polar ship from an international competition so its not unprecedented for a specialist vessel like the SSS.

Well sharkbait your sponsors at BaE really are getting their monies worth.......BaE will be tied up with frigate programs for the next 15-20 years so do they have the capacity to be involved in any other programs? or will the SSS and Minehunter/Hydrography vessels have to wait till they can be fitted in and BaE can squeeze more rebuilding of their yard out of the British tax payer....going cap in hand to the UK govt in 20 years saying they haven't the facilities to build larger ships at govan for the sss and need a couple of hundred million to reconfigure the yard then whe those are complete going back to the government for anoter couple of hundred million because the yard isn't suitable to build small warships like mine hunters. Then back again for more infrastructure funding for the LPD replacement and again for the Type 45 replacement!

Why not put the work out to other UK yards with proven histories and track records of building complex vessels and naval vessels......A Reasearch vessel can hardly be described as a simple ship to build neither by the sounds of it are Offshore Patrol vessels. BaE aren't the only game in town but they want to be and are costing the UK tax payer a fortune in trying to be.....Maybe the Government should encourage BaE to invest some of its own profits in R&D and its Infrastructure projects or maybe if they are reluctant tax them accordingly?

[shark bait]

Well sharkbait your sponsors at BaE really are getting their monies worth

Way to start a discussion, making silly personal attacks.

Perhaps you you read my comment again; BAE builds complex warships with a frigate factory, everything else is built elsewhere. Its the only sensible option.

No one else in the UK has experience designing, building, and integrating complex warships. The costs to create another independent factory would be much greater than the value added by doing so.

The RN struggles to sustain a single frigate factory, and has to waste money on interim patrol ships to sustain the capability. Opening another yard will only further exasperate this problem, costing more.

Quite simply it will be extremely difficult to build the T31 cheaper somewhere else, there is too many obstacles to overcome.

Auxiliaries and survey vessel are non complex ships that are built in hundreds of yards around the world, there is no capacity issue here. British yards should complete with the rest here, and in particular Cammell Laird looks well positioned off the back of the polar ship build.

[marktigger]

Well sharkbait your sponsors at BaE really are getting their monies worth

Way to start a discussion, making silly personal attacks.

Perhaps you you read my comment again; BAE builds complex warships with a frigate factory, everything else is built elsewhere. Its the only sensible option.

No one else in the has experience designing, building, and integrating complex warships. The costs to create another independent factory would be much greater than the value added by doing so.

The RN struggles sustain a single frigate factory, and has to waste money on interim patrol ships to sustain the capability. Opening another yard will only further exasperate this problem, costing more.

Quite simply it will be extremely difficult to build the T31 cheaper somewhere else, there is too many obstacles to overcome.

Auxiliaries and survey vessel are non complex ships that are built in hundreds of yards around the world, there is no issue here. British yards should complete with the rest here.

who said anything about opening another yard? the Minehunters and survey ships could be easily built by Babcocks at Appledore and the SSS by Cammel Lairds in liverpool.

but reconfiguring govan as a frigate factory is fine a good idea but what happens when the last type 31 leaves? hopefully the type 45 replacement or export orders. But Export orders will only happen if BaE pulls its finger out and produces a quality product on time , to spec on budget and that works!

[RetroSicotte]

Getting a bit far from news chaps, lets move this to the escorts thread,

Wait a doggone minute there cowboy. I was slapped down a few days ago for complaining that speculation about Venator did not belong on a Type 31 news thread. Now speculation about Venator (and building by blocks in different yards is firmly part of their proposal) is off limits???

Pulling your chain a bit but I am a tad confused as to what goes where.

Maybe a new thread on Type 31 candidates? Throw Venator, the BAE twins and the new froggie boat there. You could call it "Frigates the RN should never buy".

Brief discussion of a piece of released news, in that case BMT's expanded document on potential fittings, is fine.

Extended speculation on British shipbuilding with no immediate news release that isn't in direct relation, and is also starting to accelerate into a full blown multi-page discussion, is exactly the sort of thing we had complaints about these news threads turning into for those who don't want to have to scroll through page after page to find updates on a program.

We have a dedicated thread to do that till your heart's content.
http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=701

[Ron5]

BMT's expanded document has a section (complete with large picture) showing how the Venator has been designed to be built at different yards and assembled at a central location. As far as I'm aware, this is the first time they've included that in their offering. The recent discussion was triggered by that.

Anyhoo, I'm confused and annoyed by mixed messages on what is and isn't kosher. Be easier just to not read & contribute.

[dmereifield]

http://indiandefence.com/threads/uk-typ ... ate.56379/

Post on Indian Defence claims there will be up to 9 T31s - is anyone familiar with this and where the number 9 may have come from?

[RichardIC]

http://indiandefence.com/threads/uk-typ ... ate.56379/

Post on Indian Defence claims there will be up to 9 T31s - is anyone familiar with this and where the number 9 may have come from?

You can't really call a post on a forum primary source material.

The Royal Navy will get at least two dozen Type 26 Global Combat ships

... see, told you.

[dmereifield]

http://indiandefence.com/threads/uk-typ ... ate.56379/

Post on Indian Defence claims there will be up to 9 T31s - is anyone familiar with this and where the number 9 may have come from?

You can't really call a post on a forum primary source material.

The Royal Navy will get at least two dozen Type 26 Global Combat ships

... see, told you.

Great news on the increased numbers of T26, thanks for sharing!
Seriously though, I was asking if anyone had any information of a source that might have prompted the poster to make the statement of "up to 9", since it isn't something I've seen anywhere else.

[shark bait]

Fallon was just on the radio being quizzed on the T31;

• Avoided guaranteeing the work to the Clyde
• Said BAE will be in "pole position to compete for them"
• Ship building strategy will advise government how to build them
• Made a reference to block building like the carriers

[clinch]

http://indiandefence.com/threads/uk-typ ... ate.56379/

Post on Indian Defence claims there will be up to 9 T31s - is anyone familiar with this and where the number 9 may have come from?

Up to nine could be one.