Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[shark bait]

The last answer by Tony Douglas might or might not imply the setting of a timeframe in time for the Autumn Statement, but even that would be pretty damn late. I don't know how much they are telling sir Parker; i hope he knows a lot more than us, but i really do not like what i'm seeing so far.

Yes, I read that as an indication they hope to have things wrapped up by then, but he has done a good job of keeping things deliberately vague. If they cant finally get something together by the Autumn it is a complete failure by both side to understand each other, they have had long enough now.

I think we are all hoping for a solid plan from the ship building strategy, but as you say without including the most valuable ship building project for the next 20 years there is no way it can deliver anything that is actually usable. The data has to be there, and some decisions need to be made.

[Engaging Strategy]

I think we are all hoping for a solid plan from the ship building strategy, but as you say without including the most valuable ship building project for the next 20 years there is no way it can deliver anything that is actually usable. The data has to be there, and some decisions need to be made.

Unless those involved with the NSS have inside knowledge about the rough start date of the T-26 programme and the rate of production. In that case a credible strategy could still be built around those core facts.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Sorry, what I meant was that the cost of the Avenger should be much less than the Cutlass, but the main "real" benefit of both is being able to carry a helicopter. The additional capability that Cutlass brings over the Avenger is really on paper rather than being able to put it in harms way.

If the Avenger has a similar size, speed, range/endurance, and armament (3in gun, 12 CAMM, Wildcat, hull sonar, ESM/Chaff/Flare, 997 radar), then there is no chance it is cheaper than Cutlass. The hull will be smaller (narrower), which means much less future margin, and also more difficult fit-out (fatter hull is more easy to fit-out. ref STX marine OPV pdf).

To make it cheaper, BAE shall taking something in lower level; lower damage control, range/endurance, CAMM is only FFBNW, 3in gun only, and even with a hull sonar only for mine-avoidance. If not, I can imagine no place to make it cheaper.

Avenger (speculated). Adding 22m mid-extension.

avenger_1.png

If Helo is the key, and CAMM is NOT important, just build an extended River B.2 with fixed Wildcat hangar, which I was proposing for Heavy OPV/patrol frigate.
With 10m extension

River_+10m_OPV.png

or 5m extension.

River_+5m_OPV.png

The main gun can be 3in, or 30mm with LMMx7. 20mmCIWS can be placed on top of the hangar. With LMM/SeaVenom on the Wildcat, this "heavy OPV" can do many tasks, in any environment a French Floreal class is being sent = variety of tasks, as you can see.
This is what I am proposing as "heavy OPV" in case of replacing 13 T23 with "10 T26ASW and 3 heavy OPVs".

[ArmChairCivvy]

I'd be interested to know what thse tasks for the new class/ the Floreals are as the French seem to be stepping on the gass re: every frigate class that is bigger than them. The Military Law (equivalent of our 10-yr EP, but less easily pushed from pillar to post) says:

"Frigates
The construction and admission to active duty of multi-mission frigates (FREMM) started before 2014 will continue: 6 will be delivered before mid-2019. The next two, delivered in 2021 and 2022, will have enhanced capacity to replace the two Cassard class air defense frigates. Rounding up to a capacity of 15 first-class frigates and comply with the principle of differentiation, a new program of "intermediate size frigates" (FTI) is advanced, with a target of first delivery in 2023.
In this context, a renovation program for the Lafayette class stealth frigates will be launched during the period: Renovations will be carried out over the scheduled technical shutdowns. These frigates renovation will consists (among other things) in the fitting of a sonar system. They will carry out the tasks arising from operational contracts in the transition phase that will accompany the delivery of future midsize frigates (FTI).
The FREMM will be fitted with naval cruise missile (MdCN) from 2015"

[navaltechnology.com provided the translation]

PS the state company was put back on its financial legs by the fire sale of a FREMM to Egypt (and the passing on of the Mistral -derivative, for which the state will have to cough up compensation to Russia); whether the numbers reflect these developments is neither here or there; the state company gets to build more units and the price goes down - even if the ISD might move to the right).

[ArmChairCivvy]

An after-thought to the above:

As the Lafayettes are made more ASW capable, perhaps there will be one more AAW FREMM, instead as originally ordered?

[shark bait]

The FTI seems to be pushed on the same financial and time constraints as our T31, do we think leadership would be looking for a collaboration?

I understand the french are interested in the Italian PPA, and the British are interested in a none BAE off the shelf design.

The FTI will be fitted with ASTOR, helicopter and towed sonar so certainly more than the patrol frigate indications we have been given.

[rec]

http://www.maritime-executive.com/edito ... royal-navy This article underlines the issues facing the RN and the need for a comprehensive shipbuilding startegy that includes T31, T26 and I would add SSK. The morale and manpower issues are growing problems which have to be addressed or we may as well not bother with a Navay at alll

[ArmChairCivvy]

A good article, even though it counts the RM in as "sailors":

"Only the six destroyers, 13 frigates and seven attack submarines can be considered true frontline vessels, with adequate sensors, weapons and protection to fight and survive in a battle with a sophisticated foe. The other ships require escort through dangerous waters.

Roughly half the ships are in routine maintenance or training at any given time. Several others are committed to small standing patrols, which leaves just a handful of vessels to respond to emergencies.

But that's assuming there are enough sailors to operate the ships. The Royal Navy has shed people faster than ships. Britain had 39,000 sailors in 2000. It now has a little more than 29,000, at least 2,000 short of its authorized strength.

Fleet planners tried to address the personnel shortage by sidelining two of its most powerful ships. This summer, for example, the Royal Navy placed the large Type 23 frigate HMS Lancaster in “extended readiness”: It was tied up pierside, its crew assigned to other vessels.

Meanwhile, the new Type 45 destroyer HMS Dauntless suffered serious problems with generators and entered port for repairs that could last at least until 2019. As with Lancaster, the fleet dispersed Dauntless' sailors to other vessels"

So we are one down in each category, make it 2 for frigates due to the rolling life-ex prgrm. The only light at the end of the tunnel is/ are the carrier(s) and the fact that equipment for the first hree T26s has been ordered "as new" so at least the life-ex and stripping&scrapping T23s should be following each other, rather than dove tailing.

[Ron5]

gone through arbitration with the tax payer again picking up the bill Maybe HMRC should now look at recovering £289 million+ from BaE profits. And do the same every time they try and Fleece the tax payer!

Again?

The MoD acquired the WR21's themselves and handed them over (late) to Bae for installing. Any problems with the WR21 are purely the fault of the MoD and the WR21 developers/manufacturers lead by Rolls Royce.

Facts, try using them.

[Spinflight]

Any problems with the WR21 are purely the fault of the MoD and the WR21 developers/manufacturers lead by Rolls Royce.

Oh noes! Sir Humphrey at fault?

That is... impossible!

I'm sure you'll find reams of pages worth of excuses which clearly show that the latest billion pound bungle was nothing to do with the MoD.

[rec]

Back to Type 31, which is th best option BAE's Cutlass, BMTs Venator, or a modified Absalon builyt under licence by UK yards?

[Engaging Strategy]

Back to Type 31, which is the best option BAE's Cutlass, BMTs Venator, or a modified Absalon builyt under licence by UK yards?

Who's offering to build an Absalon for ~£300m?

[shark bait]

Absalon would be the best, but it's not deliverable.

The BAE offerings are a patrol boats which means the BAE design wins by bring the only one we can just about call a frigate.

There is Babcock offering too, do we have any details on that?

[Ron5]

Best option: Type 26.

[rec]

No idea what babcock are propsoing, maybe a forgein design under licesne or an extened Samuel Beckett. No idea, I do think the BMT Venator is better than either BAE offering.

[Caribbean]

Re: Babcocks - isn't there a 110m variant of the VARD 7 series?

[bobp]

Always liked the Venator perhaps with a 4.5 gun up front from the T23, or a 5 inch minus the automation gear.

[shark bait]

Hope we're not heading for a Vard, we cannot be sending our people into combat in commercial hulls.

[marktigger]

Hope we're not heading for a Vard, we cannot be sending our people into combat in commercial hulls.

if we go with British waste of space we're sending them into combat in Pimped Patrol Boats!

[Engaging Strategy]

So, brass tacks here (seeing as we've all been doing quite a lot of wishing and speculating recently). These are some reasonable assumptions and best guesses based on the original ships that the modified designs are based upon, or the brochure (in the case of the Venator).

So far we've seen four concepts for the GPFF:

-Avenger, a River class OPV extended to 111m, offered by BAE. It appears from the concept image that the additional space may be used for a CAMM VLS amidships, a light gun and a small fixed hangar, probably sized for Wildcat only. It's reported in Jane's that it will also be constructed to more exacting standards than the Batch 2 Rivers, with added redundancy, auxiliary machinery etc...

Light gun (76/57mm)
Space for a small CAMM VLS
Artisan
CODAD, two engines? Twin shafts
~24kn?
35+ days stores endurance
5,500+ nmi Range
Up to Four? seaboats carried externally on davits
Small fixed hangar and Merlin-capable flight deck
Length ~111m
Beam ~13.5m
34+ crew


Avenger concept


Batch 2 River class for comparison

-Cutlass, an extended Khareef corvette, also offered by BAE. It appears that the added length is, this time, used to include what appears to be a covered boat bay (possibly a small mission bay?) amidships, the flight deck may also be larger (although it's hard to tell).

Light Gun (likely 76mm OTO Melara, the same as the original Khareefs)
Small CAMM VLS aft of the gun (12 missiles if it mirrors the original Sea Mica configuration)
Artisan
CODAD, two engines? twin shafts.
~28kn?
21+ days stores endurance
4,500+ nmi range
Two? seaboats carried within the superstructure.
Possibly a small mission bay
Small fixed hangar and Merlin capable flight deck
Length ~120m?
Beam ~14.6m
100+ crew


Cutlass concept


Basic Khareef corvette for comparison

Venator 110, BMT's 117m light frigate concept.

Can accept anything up to and including a 5" gun.
Space for a 24 (or more?) cell VLS
Presumably Artisan
CODAD 4 engines, twin shafts.
~25kn
Stores endurance unknown
7,000nmi range
Two seaboats carried internally
Small-ish "multi mission hangar"
Hangar and flight deck for a "medium" helicopter (possibly Merlin?)
Length 117m
Beam 18m
85+ crew



And an as yet unknown proposal by Babcock marine.

In the words of the current 1SL:
"[GPFF is] to be a much less high-end ship. It is still a complex warship, and it is still able to protect and defend and to exert influence around the world, but it is deliberately shaped with lessons from wider industry and off-the-shelf technology to make it not only much more appealing to operate at a slightly lower end of Royal Navy operations."

As much as it pains me to say it, this ain't ever going to be even a vaguely high-end warship. In the current race the Venator 110 concept stands head and shoulders above the other offers. It has some credible capability, can accommodate a common gun with the rest of the fleet, has a mission bay, can (presumably, looking at its range) operate away from friendly bases for prolonged periods and is generally just much more of a warship than BAE's two rather poor offerings. If we get a more or less full fat Venator 110 I wouldn't be outraged. That said, i'm almost certain we'll go with Cutlass if we actually build these things, unless Babcock's offering is stunningly good.

[shark bait]

Doesn't look good does it? a pretty poor bunch to pick from.

I can agree the venator looks more like a frigate, only a patrol frigate, but its better than a patrol boat I suppose. Please just fit an off the shelf sonar on the back and make it a true flexible light frigate that can patrol and escort.

[Engaging Strategy]

I can agree the venator looks more like a frigate, only a patrol frigate, but its better than a patrol boat I suppose. Please just fit an off the shelf sonar on the back and make it a true flexible light frigate that can patrol and escort.

With a few tweaks you could probably get something passable out of the Venator design. My priorities would be getting 32 CAMM cells (quad packed in 8 short VLS cells to save space?) , an un-automated 5" gun, bow dome sonar and some canister AShM on it. With that it'd at least match the key fighting capabilities of the current Type 23 GP. With the Venator design I think that's all quite do-able without breaking the bank.

[donald_of_tokyo]

So far we've seen four concepts for the GPFF:

Great summary. Thanks.

But, I think Cutlass is too "lower" specified, or Avenger too "highly". The Janes document states Avenger is the cheapest end. But, in your list, it has higher performance parameters than Cutlass.

Avenger // Cutlass

• Light gun (76/57mm) // Light Gun (likely 76mm OTO Melara, the same as the original Khareefs)
  Space for a small CAMM VLS // Small CAMM VLS aft of the gun (12 missiles if it mirrors the original Sea Mica configuration)
  Artisan // Artisan
  CODAD, two engines? Twin shafts // CODAD, two engines? twin shafts.
  ~24kn? // ~28kn?
  35+ days stores endurance // 21+ days stores endurance
  5,500+ nmi Range // 4,500+ nmi range
  Up to Four? seaboats carried externally on davits // Two? seaboats carried within the superstructure.
  Small fixed hangar and Merlin-capable flight deck // Possibly a small mission bay
  Length ~111m // ~120m
  Beam ~13.5m // 14.6m
  34+ crew // 100+ crew

Cutlass ship was extended by 18m for something other than fighting capability. Avenger by 22m for fighting capability. Cutlass is fatter = larger than Avenger. So, Cutlass must have "better" performance parameters than Avenger. If not, Avenger cannot be cheaper than Cutlass.

My assumption is as follows:
Avenger // Cutlass

• Light gun (76mm) // Light Gun (likely 76mm OTO Melara)
  12 CAMM VLS // 12+? CAMM VLS (* note CAMM VLS is a bit smaller than SeaMICA's)
  Artisan // Artisan
  Diesel, two engines. one per shaft // CODAE, two diesel engines, twin shafts and a electric moter (up to ~10 kts) (by Janes, Electric speed is only speculation)
  ~24kn? // ~28kn?
  35+ days stores endurance // 35+ days stores endurance
  5,500+ nmi Range // 5,500+ nmi range (ship extended)
  4x seaboats carried externally on davits // 2x seaboats carried in the small mission-bay within the superstructure. (by Janes)
  Wildcat capable fixed hangar and Merlin-capable flight deck // The same
  Length ~111m // ~120m
  Beam ~13.5m // 14.6m
  80+ crew // 100+ crew

I can agree the venator looks more like a frigate, only a patrol frigate, but its better than a patrol boat I suppose. Please just fit an off the shelf sonar on the back and make it a true flexible light frigate that can patrol and escort.

I do not agree Venator is a "patrol frigate". It is right at the middle of "light frigate" category, similar to MEKO200-ANZ. Yes it is lightly armed, but you are spending space for endurance/range, in place of armaments. It is ANZAC compared to Vasco-da-gama. If you name it a Patrol Frigate, then Floreal is what? What is light frigate?

With a few tweaks you could probably get something passable out of the Venator design. My priorities would be getting 32 CAMM cells (quad packed in 8 short VLS cells to save space?) , an un-automated 5" gun, bow dome sonar and some canister AShM on it. With that it'd at least match the key fighting capabilities of the current Type 23 GP. With the Venator design I think that's all quite do-able without breaking the bank.

If we forget its cost (but it risks built number), I agree, but for a few points.
- 24 CAMM is good enough, 32 is "better be", I think. (I base my comment on 12-module system = 2 subsystem).
- "bow dome sonar" can be a simple hull sonar. Better use bow space for efficient propulsion. Merlin capable hangar will be of higher interest for me.
- (canistered ASM is given, just swap from T23-mod)
- I also hope to "hear" that the stern can accomodate (at least) CAPTAS-2 FFBNW, which will make it "almost equivalent to FTI", in future if RN buy CAPTAS-2.

[shark bait]

I do not agree Venator is a "patrol frigate". It is right at the middle of "light frigate" category, similar to MEKO200-ANZ. Yes it is lightly armed, but you are spending space for endurance/range, in place of armaments. It is ANZAC compared to Vasco-da-gama. If you name it a Patrol Frigate, then Floreal is what? What is light frigate?

• It doesn't look like something that could escort.
• At the moment it has no ASW capabilities.
• It doesn't look like a credible war fighter.

So its really difficult to call it a normal frigate by Royal Navy standards. On paper the Venator seems quite like the Floreal, designed for maritime security and patrols, but not escorts or anything too flighty, therefor patrol frigates. The saving grace for the Floreal is they will be turned into light ASW frigates, growing the capabilities that will be transferred to the new FTI.

Is this the first time in modern history that we have seen a piece of kit be replaced by something less capable?

[seaspear]

Would the Incheon class from South Korea meet some of the requirements? ,there are several versions starting from one hundred million U.S