Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Tony Williams
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Tony Williams »

SKB wrote:I'm guessing it'll be a brand new original British design. Probably named Type 27 for the UK, but "Global Utility Vessel" (or something equally pretentious!) for the foreign market.
If we don't design our own, we're liable to lose the experienced design staff and therefore the capability to design our own warships in the future.

Maintaining enough of a workflow to provide continuity doesn't just apply to building ships, it applies to designing them as well.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by arfah »

Dahedd wrote: Well I that case we could end up with a BAE Absalom copy costing double/triple what the original costs that we can't find export customers for anyway because it's too expensive. Why reinvent the wheel? We buy foreign aircraft & armour so why must the ships be a UK design?

I'd rather go with the BMT or Rolls Royce concepts than have BAE rip us off again.


The PM clearly stated in the SDSR 2015 an intention to purchase a cheaper, lighter design with strong export potential after the eight T26 hulls have been completed.

It is not unreasonable to assume that this will exempt licence manufacture of an overseas design.
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by abc123 »

arfah wrote:
abc123 wrote:Well, if not Khareef, than surely Absalon should do the trick...
Absalon would not do the trick, it's a foreign design. We can't export other countries designs.

Well it isn't that foreign customers are buying British frigates anyway, at least not since Leander-class... :)
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by arfah »

Hence the need for a domestic design of light frigate.
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by SKB »

Foreign customers don't buy British frigates* because - like the T26 - they aren't cheap. That's the point. They're going to build lighter and cheaper ones so foreign navies will buy them which is good for UK shipbuilding and skills. Plus we get five initial ones to bring the frigate fleet up to thirteen, with possibly more to follow.

*3x T23 to Chile doesn't count. Those were practically giveaways. ;)

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Ron5 »

1st Sea Lord said "credible" frigates. So no Venator, Rolls-Royce PB's, or Danish rip offs need to apply.

T26-lite I would think is the pre-start favorite.

As for export orders. Every UK warship design program since 1945 (at least) has been kicked off with the mantra "designed right, this will lead to exports".

Every single one.

Luckily (with one notable exception) the Admiralty & MoD have ignore such drivel. Warships built to UK & US naval standards are just not price competitive. Morocco or Thailand or whoever, will not pay for US/UK build, survivability or habitability standards. Period.

That leaves the field open for France & Italy who don't build to those standards for their navies, and to Russia & China who don't price based on their build costs anyway.

And yes, I know post war the UK has some decent successes, Leander in particular, but with the war a very recent memory, back then, some navies bought proper warships.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by hellfire »

Hi all, I have been following the build of the Queen Elizabeth class and have been very impressed a specially with the way the ACA have learnt lessons and improved the speed of the Prince of Wales build.
This brings me onto the future light frigate, Could a completely new design of a smaller cheaper frigate actually be cheaper than a follow on of type 26 when all design costs etc have been paid and it would just be the build cost.
will we end up with a light frigate for not much less than a gp type 26

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by bobp »

Welcome hellfire probably taking everything into consideration a T26 light would be the best solution. We do not yet know the cost of the T26 but it is rumoured to be a lot of money.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Think Defence »

Every single desirable quality being given to the new light frigate was also given to Type 26

After all the talk of credibility and the concept of a two tier Navy being the work of the devil, here we are, looking at a two tier navy

The jokes write themselves
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by shark bait »

Think Defence wrote:Every single desirable quality being given to the new light frigate was also given to Type 26

After all the talk of credibility and the concept of a two tier Navy being the work of the devil, here we are, looking at a two tier navy

The jokes write themselves
Indeed they do. A serious demonstration of incompetence!
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by malcrf »

Ron5 wrote:1st Sea Lord said "credible" frigates. So no Venator, Rolls-Royce PB's, or Danish rip offs need to apply
So you don't think the Iver Huidveldts are credible?

You seem to be advocating for a................................................T26! I thought the idea behind a light frigate was something significantly cheaper (so we can afford the increase in numbers) whilst being reasonably fighty, but not Tier 1. Otherwise we may as well just order more T26s.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by SKB »

Maybe 'light' just means a thinner coat of paint... on a T26. ;)

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Tony Williams »

SKB wrote:Maybe 'light' just means a thinner coat of paint... on a T26. ;)
...or a paler shade of grey? :idea:

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shark bait
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by shark bait »

Ron5 wrote:1st Sea Lord said "credible" frigates. So no Venator, Rolls-Royce PB's, or Danish rip offs need to apply.
Yes his words did give me hope.
Also Cameron did specify lighter, not light, there is a meaningful difference there.

Light firgates are a big no no, where as lighter may be acceptable. Still doesnt change the fact thats what the T26 should be all along!
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by seaspear »

There could be 50 shades of grey

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Ron5 »

seaspear wrote:There could be 50 shades of grey
Goes along with rum, sodomy & the whip.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by arfah »

Ron5 wrote:
seaspear wrote:There could be 50 shades of grey
Goes along with rum, sodomy & the whip.
You found the 'golden rivet' then?
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Ron5 »

malcrf wrote:
Ron5 wrote:1st Sea Lord said "credible" frigates. So no Venator, Rolls-Royce PB's, or Danish rip offs need to apply
So you don't think the Iver Huidveldts are credible?

You seem to be advocating for a................................................T26! I thought the idea behind a light frigate was something significantly cheaper (so we can afford the increase in numbers) whilst being reasonably fighty, but not Tier 1. Otherwise we may as well just order more T26s.
I must admit one of the main reasons that I like the 100% T26 force is that when one of the ASW variants is in refit, its VDS could be fitted to a nominally GP version therefore maintaining ASW capability.

I also can't help wonder if the "lighter" frigate is unspoken challenge to Bae i.e. get your build costs down on the 8 and we'll buy more than an additional 5. Or maybe that's (my) wishful thinking :-)

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by abc123 »

Ron5 wrote:1st Sea Lord said "credible" frigates. So no Venator, Rolls-Royce PB's, or Danish rip offs need to apply.

.

What's so not-credible about Absalons? :o
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by jimjo »

To be honest, I can't really see how a new design is going to be much cheaper than taking a T-26 hull, swapping the CODLAG system for a CODLOG, squeezing the MK41 VLS down to maybe 16 cells, not bothering with torpedo capability and using the T-23's 4.5 inch gun. These would effectively be the GP T-23's we have now (give or take a few capabilities), but with brand spanking new hulls.

Sounds to me like that would still be a very capable frigate platform without risking a new design that could end up just as costly as a T-26 but with a crappy LGP capability. Only benefit I can see to designing an entirely new vessel would be to maintain our national ship designing capability.

Just speculation of course, I'm not a military shipbuilder. Hopefully the supposed shipbuilding strategy coming next year will outline what direction we are going and why.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by abc123 »

jimjo wrote:To be honest, I can't really see how a new design is going to be much cheaper than taking a T-26 hull, swapping the CODLAG system for a CODLOG, squeezing the MK41 VLS down to maybe 16 cells, not bothering with torpedo capability and using the T-23's 4.5 inch gun. These would effectively be the GP T-23's we have now (give or take a few capabilities), but with brand spanking new hulls.

Sounds to me like that would still be a very capable frigate platform without risking a new design that could end up just as costly as a T-26 but with a crappy LGP capability. Only benefit I can see to designing an entirely new vessel would be to maintain our national ship designing capability.

Just speculation of course, I'm not a military shipbuilder. Hopefully the supposed shipbuilding strategy coming next year will outline what direction we are going and why.

What you can be pretty certain is that it will spend enormous amounts of money and give pittful numbers of vessels in return... ;)
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by shark bait »

jimjo wrote:a T-26 hull, swapping the CODLAG system for a CODLOG,
T26 is already CODLOG, but I agree with the rest of your points.
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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

Hmm, have to agree with some of the points made here. I have increasingly been thinking that i can't help but feel that whatever requirement they end up drafting for this new 'Light Frigate' will basically end up being almost exactly the same as the original T26 GP variant - unless finances are allowed to supersede capability once again that is. This ship will, in my mind, have to have the standard medium gun, it will have to have a VLS (likely Mk41) so that it has a FFBNW Land Attack capability and an installed CAMM capability. It will have to have a CIWS, it will also have to have a decent AShM capability (perhaps FFBNW) and will most likely have to have ARTISAN so that in times of need it can function at the higher end of operations. Where does all that leave? Type 26 GP to my untrained eye.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by jimjo »

T26 is already CODLOG, but I agree with the rest of your points.
Correct. Apologies, meant to suggest a CODAD as opposed to CODLOG, assuming the system still meets power generation requirements. The acronyms can run away from one sometimes.

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Re: Future Light Frigate

Post by Ron5 »

arfah wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
seaspear wrote:There could be 50 shades of grey
Goes along with rum, sodomy & the whip.
You found the 'golden rivet' then?
I'll pretend I know what that means but I have a feeling I'm better off not knowing :-)

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