Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[Roders96]

While everyone here is busy making their last minute changes to the T31 requirements, can I point out that the T26 has a boat bay plus the multi-mission space. Thus, if the multi-mission space is used by 4 RM craft which are all off doing some maritime interdiction (for example), the T26 will still have a ship's boat for man-overboard safety tasks.

The T31, with just 4 boat bays, means that just 3 boats will be available for operations with one always remaining behind for ship safety tasks.

So what you're saying is T31 delivers 75% of the capability at 40% of the cost?

Sounds 90% more cost effective to me!

[Repulse]

So what you're saying is T31 delivers 75% of the capability at 40% of the cost?

Sounds 90% more cost effective to me!

A B2 River can carry 7 boats for a price at most is a 1/3 of the T31 - does that make it 600% more effective? I think there are a few factors missing from your equation...

[Roders96]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing

[Ron5]

While everyone here is busy making their last minute changes to the T31 requirements, can I point out that the T26 has a boat bay plus the multi-mission space. Thus, if the multi-mission space is used by 4 RM craft which are all off doing some maritime interdiction (for example), the T26 will still have a ship's boat for man-overboard safety tasks.

The T31, with just 4 boat bays, means that just 3 boats will be available for operations with one always remaining behind for ship safety tasks.

All the more reason to make a full width mission bay leaving the aft bay (latest CGI) or bays (all other CGI) for sea boats.

Of course dependent on the Type 31 designers not filling the previous empty space between the bays, with something else. I would hope they've had the sense not to because even if not used for a mission bay, future weapons (like more CAMM) would fit there nicely.

[inch]

Just had a crazy thought of the day , don't mind being shot down here folks but there being possible rummers of UK loaning Ukraine £1.2 b ,shame on that amount that they could get a few t31 frigates , people might say there too big for Ukraine but I'm not so sure ,do their navy good having a few large surface combatants counteracting Russia in the black sea area ,even if only 2 frigates and a couple of them smaller ships ,not sure how much it would cost tho but hopefully 1.2 b could go aways to financing it .ok folks you can tell me where my plan has loads of holes in it ,I won't be offended

[bobp]

Just had a crazy thought of the day

Isn't this the wrong thread for crazy thoughts and fantasies?? Supposed to be News only. Sorry to be a pain.

[inch]

Aye I guess your right bobp no probs

[jonas]

Just had a crazy thought of the day

Isn't this the wrong thread for crazy thoughts and fantasies?? Supposed to be News only. Sorry to be a pain.

Yes how silly. It's not as if there have been any crazy thoughts and fantasies posted on here before is it.

[The Armchair Soldier]

Isn't this the wrong thread for crazy thoughts and fantasies?? Supposed to be News only. Sorry to be a pain.

Yup. Let's get back to posting news and related discussion. Feel free to use the General Discussion topic for anything else.

[Timmymagic]

5 sets of guns ordered, would have thought we would have ordered a couple more for trials, training and spares though..

[Poiuytrewq]

would have thought we would have ordered a couple more for trials

It will be interesting to see how this 57mm/40mm combo works in the real world and how the CIWS capability compares with Phalanx.

The 40mm's will also be potentially useful on the RFA's and OPV's going forward especially if with the 3P ammo so it makes sense to include it in the inventory.

It would have been very interesting to see the through-life cost benefit analysis of the 57mm Mk110 as opposed to the 127mm Mk45 without the auto mag. I can't help but think that the decision to add the 57mm to the T31 was not only to trim costs, but partly to safeguard the continuing inclusion of the 127mm auto magazine on the T26.

[ArmChairCivvy]

partly to safeguard the continuing inclusion of the 127mm auto magazine on the T26.

Which is a good thing
- what shall we do with the 20 or so older guns?

[RichardIC]

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/b ... te-program

BAE Systems awarded naval guns contract for U.K.’s Type 31 frigate program



BAE Systems will produce and deliver Bofors 40 Mk4 and Bofors 57 Mk3 naval guns for the U.K. Ministry of Defence’s Type 31 general purpose frigate program.
The agreement, through a contract with Babcock International, will supply the Royal Navy with a set of advanced, multi-purpose gun systems for its fleet of five ships, with the first ship expected to go into service in 2027.

The contract includes five Bofors 57 Mk3 medium caliber guns and 10 Bofors 40 Mk4 small caliber guns. Both close-in weapon systems are designed to protect the ships against modern and future complex threats. The guns also offer the Royal Navy optimized ammunition types, including the cost-efficient programmable Bofors 3P all-target munition.

“We will be providing the most cutting edge gun system technology available which can adapt to different levels of conflict, including peacekeeping missions, local coastguard operations, and military operations,” said Lena Gillström, managing director for BAE Systems Bofors. “This contract increases the number of European nations deploying our advanced, flexible weapon systems.”

BAE Systems’ scope of work for the Type 31 program also includes services, tools, spares, documentation and support. Both naval gun systems will be manufactured at BAE Systems’ facility in Karlskoga, Sweden, with deliveries expected to take place in 2023 and 2024.

The Bofors 57 Mk3 naval gun is installed on various ship types around the world and is in use with the allied navies and coast guards of eight nations, including Canada, Finland, Germany, and Sweden, as well as the United States, where it is known as the Mk110 naval gun. BAE Systems has built and delivered more than 100 Bofors 57 Mk3 naval guns to customers around the world. The Bofors 40 Mk4 naval gun is the latest generation in the 40mm family, and with this contract, the Royal Navy will become its fifth operator.

[donald_of_tokyo]

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/b ... te-program

Thanks. Three points to note.

The agreement, through a contract with Babcock International, will supply ...

1: I understand this means these guns are included in the £1.25B contract with Babcock (presumably), and not GFE. It is as expected.

“We will be providing the most cutting edge gun system technology available which can adapt to different levels of conflict, including peacekeeping missions, local coastguard operations, and military operations,” said Lena Gillström ...

2: I have an impression that the low-level threat operations, "peacekeeping missions" and "local coastguard operations", are rather stressed here.

The Bofors 40 Mk4 naval gun is the latest generation in the 40mm family, and with this contract, the Royal Navy will become its fifth operator.

3: I understand this means, RN is the 5th operator of "Bofors 40 Mk4 naval gun". But, I'm also afraid there are not many operates of "40mm 3P munitions? Are there any info there? Ammo of 57mm gun has a "bright future". At least, US is heavily investing on it. But, personally I hear not much about 40 mm ammo development. Note that, it was around 1990 when the "40 mm 3P ammo" came about, 30 years ago...

[Ron5]

Interesting questions. Let me answer on behalf of .... me.

It will be interesting to see how this 57mm/40mm combo works in the real world and how the CIWS capability compares with Phalanx.

It doesn't and it won't. Phalanx is a self contained high performance CIWS with built in detection & FCS with a fully autonomous capability.

The Bae 40mm is cheaper.

The 40mm's will also be potentially useful on the RFA's and OPV's going forward especially if with the 3P ammo so it makes sense to include it in the inventory.

Only if you want to save money.

It would have been very interesting to see the through-life cost benefit analysis of the 57mm Mk110 as opposed to the 127mm Mk45 without the auto mag. I can't help but think that the decision to add the 57mm to the T31 was not only to trim costs, but partly to safeguard the continuing inclusion of the 127mm auto magazine on the T26.

This implies some kind of joined up thinking between two separate programs. I don't believe the MoD has that capability. It's been gapped.

[Tempest414]

It doesn't and it won't. Phalanx is a self contained high performance CIWS with built in detection & FCS with a fully autonomous capability.

The Bae 40mm is cheaper.

As I have said many times if T-31 was to get 2 x Phalanx ( like on the model) in line with T-45 & T-26 and there fore RN thinking plus NSM from a weapon point of view it would be a very good littoral ship and a good global patrol frigate

anyway we are starting to see orders being placed which is good news hopefully one day soon we will a sonar ordered

[Ron5]

Interesting article about Babcock's media day on Type 31 progress. They seem coy about where modules will be built which surprised me. Well that and the declaration that no scaffolding will be used, seems odd.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/type-3 ... -pandemic/

[NickC]

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/b ... te-program

BAE Systems awarded naval guns contract for U.K.’s Type 31 frigate program



BAE Systems will produce and deliver Bofors 40 Mk4 and Bofors 57 Mk3 naval guns for the U.K. Ministry of Defence’s Type 31 general purpose frigate program.
The agreement, through a contract with Babcock International, will supply the Royal Navy with a set of advanced, multi-purpose gun systems for its fleet of five ships, with the first ship expected to go into service in 2027.

The contract includes five Bofors 57 Mk3 medium caliber guns and 10 Bofors 40 Mk4 small caliber guns. Both close-in weapon systems are designed to protect the ships against modern and future complex threats. The guns also offer the Royal Navy optimized ammunition types, including the cost-efficient programmable Bofors 3P all-target munition.

“We will be providing the most cutting edge gun system technology available which can adapt to different levels of conflict, including peacekeeping missions, local coastguard operations, and military operations,” said Lena Gillström, managing director for BAE Systems Bofors. “This contract increases the number of European nations deploying our advanced, flexible weapon systems.”

BAE Systems’ scope of work for the Type 31 program also includes services, tools, spares, documentation and support. Both naval gun systems will be manufactured at BAE Systems’ facility in Karlskoga, Sweden, with deliveries expected to take place in 2023 and 2024.

The Bofors 57 Mk3 naval gun is installed on various ship types around the world and is in use with the allied navies and coast guards of eight nations, including Canada, Finland, Germany, and Sweden, as well as the United States, where it is known as the Mk110 naval gun. BAE Systems has built and delivered more than 100 Bofors 57 Mk3 naval guns to customers around the world. The Bofors 40 Mk4 naval gun is the latest generation in the 40mm family, and with this contract, the Royal Navy will become its fifth operator.

USNI News today article on the "March 2020 U.S. Navy Board of Inspection and Survey Annual Report", based on their 2019 assessments on health of USN ships.

Disappointing to read that the BAE/Bofors Mk110 57mm guns fitted on both the USN LCS classes had significant deficiencies, 3 out 5 with Freedom ships tested and same numbers with Independence class, if interpreting report correctly. The Mark 3 variant used by USN designed 1995 and introduced into service with the Visby-class corvette in 2000.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/docume ... Signed.pdf

[ArmChairCivvy]

Should have bought the genuine article - rather than set up a separate factory just for the US(N & CG)

[Ron5]

Should have bought the genuine article - rather than set up a separate factory just for the US(N & CG)

Yes, and Babcock's following your advice and buying the real McCoy

[donald_of_tokyo]

News
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/type-3 ... -pandemic/

and its original source.
https://www.babcockinternational.com/ne ... ss-update/

[donald_of_tokyo]

https://www.babcockinternational.com/ne ... ss-update/

Analysis:

See diagram shown at 10:52 of the movie clip.
- Notably, it is officially now 3 Pacific24 RHIBs, not 4. The port-side alcove is now only one, not two.
- CAMM remains to be 12 (although not numbered)
- Core crew is 105 not 90 (as expected, original "90" was just a sales talk). Added with air-crew, it will be 120 or so.
- EO FCS is specified as Mirador, supplemented with Gatekeeper EO surveillance (*1,*2)
- ESM and ECM only is clearly stated to be GFX (does this mean CAMM is not GSX? Not sure).
- Endurance stated as 1-2 months (Great. ref T26's endurance is stated to be 60 days).
- Max speed stated as 26.1 knots, not 30 knots (Might be 100% MCR vs 80% MCR?)
- "This is a no-change contract". Strongly stressed elsewhere. So, these numbers are final. Of course some "not announced yet" items will be there. Any addition will just come AFTER they commission (or only with additional funds and independent/modified contract).
- Cost stated a £250M, stating £2B total includes operational support. (Fair in some point, but in that case T26 cost is not known. £3.6B for 3 T26 batch-1 includes many initial support, as I understand? But fore export sales, "£250M" is a right number, I guess. As such, french-FREMM is €670m (2014) not €1B).

*1, *2:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... or-v01.pdf
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... er-v01.pdf

[donald_of_tokyo]

Another interesting points I noticed.

- Babcock guy continuously states Rosyth facility is NOT ONLY for T31. It is designed to be used for future ship building and stuffs other than ship. Although they are hoping for T31 export, they keep saying they are not reliant on it.

- 3D digital ship building is impressive. The same approach BAES was taking at Govan.

- Thales is strongly contributing to this project (As we know, Babcock and Thales are the only two companies "shared the risk" of T31 proposal). We can see this also from the movie. With this project, SeaCeptor/CAMM system will be integrated into TACTICOS for the first time. This will bring great opportunities to CAMM export sales. (Brazilian light frigate uses another CMS, from Embraer Group. New Zealand ANZAC frigate uses Canadian CMS330. Good thing.)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Cost stated a £250M, stating £2B total includes operational support.

As tends to be the case, but in this 'case' there are also rich helpings of GFX within the difference (0.75 on top of the 1.25 bn).

A key point: design it right and the customer can afford to buy more
"The original Danish designers OMT, paid considerable attention to reducing complexity to ensure construction challenges and through-life costs were minimised. (Arrowhead is 50% bigger than was envisaged in the original RN specification)."
- now... or perhaps later

[Roders96]

Will be very surprised if the start of significant sino patrols in our backyard doesn't deliver significant additions relatively early in their life.