Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

[Jake1992]

With both the T-26 and T-31 we need the hulls in the water before we start thinking of upgrades. I would love to see the remaining T-26 built to an improved design, leveraging some of the ideas that have come out of the Australian and Canadian competitions but not at the cost in numbers. The Navy has got its two carriers and will have fourteen tier 1 escorts. It needs to keep its head down now and concentrate on keeping what it has both in service and in the pipeline, but it should consider giving up at least a couple of the GP T-23s to earn a few Brownie Points come the next SDSR.

Agree with what you’ve said about the next batch of T26s but on the second part of you comment I’d argue with Boris’ whole global Britain pitch and thinking that this is the time the RN should be pushing for more and giving the reasons why and not just accepting the short falls it has just because it’s got a few big ticket items.

[Tempest414]

For me Type 26 will be quite well fitted for its task and if it was fitted with NSM it would have 32 cells and 48 CAMM allowing a load out of

48 CAMM , 12 ASROC , 12 Tomahawk , 8 NSM plus helicopter carried torpedo's given they will be stuck with the carriers and TAPS this should be ok

As for type 31 we need them in the water first and for most however if more money could be found then list in line would be a sonar followed by NSM and then 3 x 3 cell EXLS to round this ship out

[Roders96]

With both the T-26 and T-31 we need the hulls in the water before we start thinking of upgrades. I would love to see the remaining T-26 built to an improved design, leveraging some of the ideas that have come out of the Australian and Canadian competitions but not at the cost in numbers. The Navy has got its two carriers and will have fourteen tier 1 escorts. It needs to keep its head down now and concentrate on keeping what it has both in service and in the pipeline, but it should consider giving up at least a couple of the GP T-23s to earn a few Brownie Points come the next SDSR.

There will be some out there that think giving up those GP T23 extremely short sighted, especially as it seems we have finally got to a point where the fleet could be growing again very soon.

Would it also be an idea to stop writing off the Type 31 as not a Tier 1 asset before we know it's details? That £150m increase per unit could be spent on some very capable government furnished equipment.

[Ron5]

With both the T-26 and T-31 we need the hulls in the water before we start thinking of upgrades. I would love to see the remaining T-26 built to an improved design, leveraging some of the ideas that have come out of the Australian and Canadian competitions but not at the cost in numbers. The Navy has got its two carriers and will have fourteen tier 1 escorts. It needs to keep its head down now and concentrate on keeping what it has both in service and in the pipeline, but it should consider giving up at least a couple of the GP T-23s to earn a few Brownie Points come the next SDSR.

There will be some out there that think giving up those GP T23 extremely short sighted, especially as it seems we have finally got to a point where the fleet could be growing again very soon.

Would it also be an idea to stop writing off the Type 31 as not a Tier 1 asset before we know it's details? That £150m increase per unit could be spent on some very capable government furnished equipment.

Firstly, I agree about giving up ships to earn brownie points is kinda stoopid. Never heard that work anyplace, anytime.

Secondly, it ain't the nice folks here that are labeling the Type 31's as not Tier 1, it's the Royal Navy.

Thirdly, I'll bet a dollar to win a penny those extra funds are contingency to cover cost overruns/currency fluctuations. Be nuts not to expect some. Extra equipment my a$$.

[ArmChairCivvy]

some. Extra equipment my a$$.

C'on Ron , that's the nature of 'lego ships' ... you add bit by bit (and it is cheaper during build).

[Lord Jim]

I would be very surprised if there was any increase in the spec for the T-31 before they all hit the water. Any extra funds will probably be just to maintain the status quo and ensure the five ships are delivered at the same spec as of the signing of the contract. Or at least that had better be the case because any funding increase that would facilitate a capability boost will have to come from somewhere and that is in all likelihood going to be from the Army's slice of the Equipment Programme. The Defence Budget may get yearly "Band Aid" cash injections but these are only going to cover things like currency fluctuation etc. not allow for additional kit or even filling the hole in existing funding by much.

[Ron5]

some. Extra equipment my a$$.

C'on Ron , that's the nature of 'lego ships' ... you add bit by bit (and it is cheaper during build).

Even cheaper not to buy the extra Legos (TM).

[ArmChairCivvy]

Every walk of life has its own 'ladder' mapping for capability/ maturity/ or whatever else comes to mind
- in this case it would be, in due course, from 'presence' to fightability... the latter is also under a trademark (TD's )

[jonas]

This is rather interesting, though under the heading 'Deliverability' the date given for ship 1 seems rather ambiguous

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 31_AOA.pdf

[donald_of_tokyo]

This is rather interesting, though under the heading 'Deliverability' the date given for ship 1 seems rather ambiguous

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 31_AOA.pdf

Thanks!

Ship 1 will be in the water in 2023, with all ships accepted off-contract by the end of 2028. The IAC has approved the In Service Date of Ship 1 for May 2027

So this means,
- first T31 will be "in service" on 2027, not 2024 nor 2025.
- also, it means ALL 5 T31 will be handed over to RN ("accepted off-contract") by the end of 2028.

So, the first T31 will be in service at the same year the 1st T26 will commission.

[jonas]

This is rather interesting, though under the heading 'Deliverability' the date given for ship 1 seems rather ambiguous

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 31_AOA.pdf

Thanks!

Ship 1 will be in the water in 2023, with all ships accepted off-contract by the end of 2028. The IAC has approved the In Service Date of Ship 1 for May 2027

So this means,
- first T31 will be "in service" on 2027, not 2024 nor 2025.
- also, it means ALL 5 T31 will be handed over to RN ("accepted off-contract") by the end of 2028.

So, the first T31 will be in service at the same year the 1st T26 will commission.

Doesn't make any sense does it. !

[Tempest414]

Maybe in the water 4Q of 2023

Fitting out 2024 - 2025

sea trials and commission 2025 - 2026

[ArmChairCivvy]

So, the first T31 will be in service at the same year the 1st T26 will commission.

1st of class from both coming in at the same time (how many T23s will have fallen off by then?), but the other 4 El Cheapos will follow imminently, whereas the Rolls Royces are being hand made (cash trip-fed)?
- 2028 =5 T31s
- and the first 3 T26s will be by when?

[tomuk]

Babcock have received planing permission (24th Jan) for the construction of a new build hall at Rosyth Dockyard.

It is 160m long x 60m wide x 40m high and sited between No 1 Dock (where QECs) assembled and existing Syncrolift building.

https://goo.gl/maps/41jTMPK2yKCvA3br5

19/03400/FULL | Erection of new ship building module hall and renewal of existing hardstanding | Babcock Marine Building 15 Keith Road Port Of Rosyth Rosyth Fife https://planning.fife.gov.uk/online/sea ... ion=simple

The applicant, Babcock International Group, are programmed to
launch the first of five type 31 frigates in 2023 with manufacture
commencing in 2021 and the fifth ship concluding in 2027.

The manufacturing and assembly processes have therefore,
primarily influenced the scale and form of the proposed module
hall. The Building volume (160m long x 60m wide x 40m high)
allows for two frigates to be constructed side by side before
being railed and launched into the adjacent Main Basin to the
south.

Internally the building will contain two gantry cranes, each with
two lifting hooks which will be able to provide lifting cover to the
full internal floor area of the hall.

The proposed hall incorporates a total of four MegaDoors, two
pairs on both the North and South façades. Each door is 24m
wide x 30m high with a demountable column between which will
create an overall 48m wide opening. This provides flexibility for
undertaking future ship building operations within the module
hall on conclusion of the Type 31 frigate project. The building
will be clad in a profiled insulated wall and roof panel, like that
used on other buildings throughout the dockyard.

[Ron5]

I had to laugh at the following phrase in the letter:

"In addition to challenging the bidders to offer the most efficient drumbeat of delivery to drive down cost,...."

So exactly what was done for 1) the Astutes, 2) the CVF's and 3) the Type 26's, whose costs were hugely inflated due to Treasury insistence of a constant delivery schedule.

Drumbeat deliveries, for the uninitiated, is a Treasury invented term meaning delivery of a class of ships at a steady, consistent rate like one every two years. As opposed to the most efficient/cheapest way of building ships which is to build them faster and faster, cheaper and cheaper, as the shipyard climbs the learning curve.

You couldn't make up this crap even if you tried: "we will challenge you to build the ships as efficiently as possible using the most inefficient means of delivery"

[dmereifield]

So, the first T31 will be in service at the same year the 1st T26 will commission.

1st of class from both coming in at the same time (how many T23s will have fallen off by then?), but the other 4 El Cheapos will follow imminently, whereas the Rolls Royces are being hand made (cash trip-fed)?
- 2028 =5 T31s
- and the first 3 T26s will be by when?

The El Cheapo class, I like it.

Do we have any more info on what the ship names will be?

[S M H]

allows for two frigates to be constructed side by side beforebeing railed and launched into the adjacent Main Basin to the south .

When the Synchro lift was built it had two external rail lines for vessels to large to fit into the covered hall . Served by the traversing frame in front of the shed. So placing the shed there makes sense. The ground was piled between the shed and number 1 dock road . The only question is has Babcock or the dockyard prior kept the original lifting capability of the synchro lift. If not they will need to lay rails lead to the dock, Requiring a barge to float the ship into the basin.

[tomuk]

allows for two frigates to be constructed side by side beforebeing railed and launched into the adjacent Main Basin to the south .

When the Synchro lift was built it had two external rail lines for vessels to large to fit into the covered hall . Served by the traversing frame in front of the shed. So placing the shed there makes sense. The ground was piled between the shed and number 1 dock road . The only question is has Babcock or the dockyard prior kept the original lifting capability of the synchro lift. If not they will need to lay rails lead to the dock, Requiring a barge to float the ship into the basin.

The synchrolift is still in use for the sandown class refits but you couldn't fit a Type 31 as it is only 60m long. The plans show the new hall will be built right up against the existing covered hall over the external rail lines. They also say that the hard standing between the new hall and the basin will be re-laid so I assume that a semi submersible barge will be used.

[ArmChairCivvy]

so I assume that a semi submersible barge will be used.

an instant buoyancy test, the USN way, is much more fun, with a bigger splash!

[NickC]

The Fincantieri Marinette shipyard will be modernised with the installation of a new syncrolift to replace the existing sideways launch process, ending the spectacular sideways process which creates the big splash as a ship is launched into the river, but like all moving launches places strain on a hull that can sometimes result in damage or wear.

The LCS Freedom class are launched into the water at about 80% complete, if they win the contract for the new FFG(X) planning on launch at over 90 percent complete, targeting 96%.

[Blackstone]

so I assume that a semi submersible barge will be used.

an instant buoyancy test, the USN way, is much more fun, with a bigger splash!

MM will, thankfully, cease chucking hulls into the river sideways if they win FFGX. That is, if the synchrolift can survive Wisconsin winters.

[ArmChairCivvy]

if the synchrolift can survive Wisconsin winters.

The railways were invented here, but every other European country (with a winter) put the electricity feed above, not as the "third rail" ... which freezes over, often
... that thing must be far more complicated

[Ron5]

I've been out of town and just got back yesterday and sorting through a stack of mail to find the latest copy of Warship World.

It contains a nice article by by Richard Scott on the Type 31 and, given the publishing date of the magazine, was written soon after the contract was announced. Anyhow a couple or three points in the article caught my eye and may be of interest here:

The article refers to the two primary sensors, the NS100 radar and the Gatekeeper E/O system as being the "baseline" i.e. with the potential of being upgraded if money can be found during the detailed design phase. I hope so for at least the second item: Gatekeeper, is very bargain basement.

Sea Ceptor is referred to as GFX (government supplied equipment) and so its cost is not included in the 1.25 billion award to Babcocks and probably means that they are being reclaimed from decommed Type 23's. I wonder if one Type 23 will supply missiles, launchers & equipment for two Type 31's?

Guns are no surprise, Bae 57mm and two Bae 40mm which are all capable of Bofors smart 3P ammo.

Hangar can accept Wildcat or Merlin, no surprise there, but flight deck is being strengthened to take up a Chinook or CH-53.

Lastly, overall budget is 1.98 billion pounds. 1.25 billion for Babcock's and the rest for work to achieve entry into service (logs, training, initial support, spares), GFX, steady state training, and completion of capability trials.

For those that wonder why a 6 thousand ton warship is so sparsely equipped, the article repeats: these ships are for Maritime Security. Donald-san's suggestion of a British Floreal is indeed what these are. Just a tad larger.

By the way, get a sub to Warship World, well worth it for coverage of the RN old and new. Plus other navies.

[dmereifield]

I've been out of town and just got back yesterday and sorting through a stack of mail to find the latest copy of Warship World.

It contains a nice article by by Richard Scott on the Type 31 and, given the publishing date of the magazine, was written soon after the contract was announced. Anyhow a couple or three points in the article caught my eye and may be of interest here:

The article refers to the two primary sensors, the NS100 radar and the Gatekeeper E/O system as being the "baseline" i.e. with the potential of being upgraded if money can be found during the detailed design phase. I hope so for at least the second item: Gatekeeper, is very bargain basement.

Sea Ceptor is referred to as GFX (government supplied equipment) and so its cost is not included in the 1.25 billion award to Babcocks and probably means that they are being reclaimed from decommed Type 23's. I wonder if one Type 23 will supply missiles, launchers & equipment for two Type 31's?

Guns are no surprise, Bae 57mm and two Bae 40mm which are all capable of Bofors smart 3P ammo.

Hangar can accept Wildcat or Merlin, no surprise there, but flight deck is being strengthened to take up a Chinook or CH-53.

Lastly, overall budget is 1.98 billion pounds. 1.25 billion for Babcock's and the rest for work to achieve entry into service (logs, training, initial support, spares), GFX, steady state training, and completion of capability trials.

For those that wonder why a 6 thousand ton warship is so sparsely equipped, the article repeats: these ships are for Maritime Security. Donald-san's suggestion of a British Floreal is indeed what these are. Just a tad larger.

By the way, get a sub to Warship World, well worth it for coverage of the RN old and new. Plus other navies.

Very interesting. Thanks. Still some questions about whether it will have a hull mounted sonar or not, and if they will receive ASM later in life (perhaps the 5 interim sets might be handed down after the T23's retire). On the Floreal point, the T31 will be large enough to receive significant upgrades should the RN decide that they need to have more teeth

[ArmChairCivvy]

the T31 will be large enough to receive significant upgrades should the RN decide that they need to have more teeth

In addition space has been designed 'in' from maintainability POV; consider it 'on the go' as opposed to looking for somewhere where is is convenient to strip things down, put them back again... and then continue Ops, a few weeks later
- v convenient if forward based
- two grades of engineers, to do everything , as opposed to 5 on RN frigates (able to do less, because over time more and more has been crammed in, where-ever it fits)