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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Jake1992
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 27 Sep 2018, 14:46

Could the QEs be extended to the orginal 300m they were planned as to give extra capacity at some point if every desired ?

If so how long do people think it'd take and how much would it cost ?
Or would it be cheaper to build from new ?

Little J
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Little J » 27 Sep 2018, 15:10

PhillyJ wrote:all things going well, his Great Grandson will be on HMS Prince Of Wales from January. 8-)


Good luck to him :thumbup:

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 27 Sep 2018, 15:38

If an extra 20 metres were ever added to the QE to make it 300 metres long (it never will, this is just hypothetical play), then I think the perfect place would be to split the QE in two between LB02 and LB03 (just behind the forward island), skid the bow end forwards and weld in new 20 metre blocks behind LB02, its flightdeck, and sponsons, as the hull is nice and straight there and would add 20 metres of internal space into the hangar, as well as the flightdeck. Maybe i'll stick a drawing into the fantasy thread later... ;)


^ In 2018, Silver Spirit grew from 195.8 to 210.7 metres long. Her tonnage increased from 36,009 to 39,519 GT, and capacity - from 540 to 608 passengers

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby rbw91 » 27 Sep 2018, 16:14

SKB wrote:If an extra 20 metres were ever added to the QE to make it 300 metres long (it never will, this is just hypothetical play), then I think the perfect place would be to split the QE in two between LB02 and LB03 (just behind the forward island), skid the bow end forwards and weld in new 20 metre blocks behind LB02, SP01Aft, CB02E, SP02Aft as the hull is nice and straight there and would add 20 metres of space into the hangar, as well as the flightdeck. Maybe i'll stick a drawing into the fantasy thread later... ;)


Maybe we can use Goliath again after all. World's largest Bandsaw?

Jake1992
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 27 Sep 2018, 16:25

SKB wrote:If an extra 20 metres were ever added to the QE to make it 300 metres long (it never will, this is just hypothetical play), then I think the perfect place would be to split the QE in two between LB02 and LB03 (just behind the forward island), skid the bow end forwards and weld in new 20 metre blocks behind LB02, SP01Aft, CB02E, SP02Aft as the hull is nice and straight there and would add 20 metres of space into the hangar, as well as the flightdeck. Maybe i'll stick a drawing into the fantasy thread later... ;)


Makes sence, I know the orginal plans show the extra 20m just infront of the forward island but as you say behind makes more sence to maximise the extra space and an easier space due to hull shape there.

What extra capacity do people believe the extra 20m could give aircraft wise aswell as stores wise ?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby WhiteWhale » 27 Sep 2018, 17:36

Another 20m? Probably room for another 2 Airframes on standard load, 3 at high capacity. Commercial ships have been doing cut and shuts quite well for a decades, but that's usually to increase capacity by ~40%+. Also the longer hull forms are typically more hydrodynamic which can save a civil operator a great deal in fuel (or help a ship get another knot).


It isn't quite that easy though, a hull is designed with it's wave form in mind, making sure that the shape of the hull matches the waves and load bearing changes of the medium it travels through, extending a hull, even with the same thickness of metal could expose that hull to greater loads which will shorten the overall life and produce issues with sagging and twisting. Those extra rooms would also require powering putting a strain on the ships power grid and eating into excess capacity.


Not to mention that you will have a ship out of action for a couple of years and a several hundred million pound (if you're lucky) bill for an extra handful of aircraft that the MoD can't afford to buy anyway.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 27 Sep 2018, 18:51

WhiteWhale wrote:Another 20m? Probably room for another 2 Airframes on standard load, 3 at high capacity. Commercial ships have been doing cut and shuts quite well for a decades, but that's usually to increase capacity by ~40%+. Also the longer hull forms are typically more hydrodynamic which can save a civil operator a great deal in fuel (or help a ship get another knot).


It isn't quite that easy though, a hull is designed with it's wave form in mind, making sure that the shape of the hull matches the waves and load bearing changes of the medium it travels through, extending a hull, even with the same thickness of metal could expose that hull to greater loads which will shorten the overall life and produce issues with sagging and twisting. Those extra rooms would also require powering putting a strain on the ships power grid and eating into excess capacity.


Not to mention that you will have a ship out of action for a couple of years and a several hundred million pound (if you're lucky) bill for an extra handful of aircraft that the MoD can't afford to buy anyway.


Only 2 extra aircraft for a given 20m extra hanger space and 20m deck space I'd expect more than that.

Oh I know there's a lot more to it and it's cost lot let alone the time it was purely hyperthetical to see if people think it'd be possible if ever desired

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 27 Sep 2018, 18:55

Here's a 300m long version of QE I've drawn with new blocks added between LB02 and LB03.
QE300m.png:large


Cheapest way to make QE 300m long is to attach a 20m long antenna, a figurehead or a battering ram on the bow. Or a 20m long transom flap on the stern. :mrgreen:
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WhiteWhale
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby WhiteWhale » 27 Sep 2018, 20:24

Jake1992 wrote:
Only 2 extra aircraft for a given 20m extra hanger space and 20m deck space I'd expect more than that.

Oh I know there's a lot more to it and it's cost lot let alone the time it was purely hyperthetical to see if people think it'd be possible if ever desired



An F-35 is about 15.5m long and 11m wide, plus working and manouvering space they probably take about 20m2 each, so that's a fair bit in the hanger. With emergency storage maybe another 2 in the hanger and another 2 on the deck for about 6 more in total but aircrews can get real whiney when they don't have room to get around and work on each aicraft.


A cheaty but maybe useful way of gettin to 300m might be an extendable ramp mounted to the after like a fold out bridge, in order to let light aircraft + UAV's come in and land (a fair few STOL craft are rated for 300-400m, so a few more metres of space and WoD might help open up some cheap options), I'm thinking of something like:
, but flat and mounted directly on the back of the ship.


But can't see it happening in reality, there are other options that can already take off from the ship as is without the added complication. As much as I think it would look pretty cool.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby R686 » 27 Sep 2018, 22:51

SKB wrote:Cheapest way to make QE 300m long is to attach a 20m long antenna, a figurehead or a battering ram on the bow. Or a 20m long transom flap on the stern. :mrgreen:



The cheapest way was to build them 300m from the start of build
How much did they reckon it would be to convert to cat/trap?
In all fairness it would most likely be cheaper to build another commercial spec Ocean with fast jet capability than increase the size of QE

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 27 Sep 2018, 23:45

Wouldn't have to be even fast jet just something to carry the rotary craft and accompany the carriers freeing up more space on the carrier

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Repulse » 28 Sep 2018, 07:17

R686 wrote:In all fairness it would most likely be cheaper to build another commercial spec Ocean with fast jet capability than increase the size of QE


Though the crane is still available, why not just divert cash from supporting penny packet token Army formations in mainland Europe and buy / man a third :angel:
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby swoop » 28 Sep 2018, 09:27

R686 wrote:The cheapest way was to build them 300m from the start of build

Correct.
All the systems and plant necessary to make catapults work (steam) would be a massive gutting of the ship and rebuild.
IF EMALS ever gets working, you still have space issues to fit that system into the hull.
On top of that, there's the removal of the ramp, fitting of arrestor gear and associated engines.
Then you have to go and purchase some new aircraft suitable for use with cat/trap.

So people, forget about ever seeing a conversion.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 28 Sep 2018, 09:40

If back in fantasy land could an emals lite for uav launches be directed to launch off rear of carrier not effecting the ramp

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Sep 2018, 10:19

swoop wrote:you have to go and purchase some new aircraft suitable for use with cat/trap.


A point v relevant to UAVs as the weight gained from stronger structures would work counter to one of their main advantages: endurance/ being more persistent than manned assets.
- picked up from Safran web site what they have available in pneumatic catapults, MOTS (surely could be made bigger, and can be on wheels so not crowding the flight deck when not in use): " a broad range of UAS and target drone types, including propeller and turbine engine designs with a maximum takeoff weight ranging between 10kg and 500kg"
- we know the above type of thing (but of fixed type) for ScanEagle... from tuna boats to frigates, but recovery is a tad complicated


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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby CameronPerson » 28 Sep 2018, 14:16

Can’t wait to see a SRVL :clap:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby -Eddie- » 28 Sep 2018, 14:19

Oops, I suspect someone at Jane's may get a ticking off by the MoD media team.

All tweets and articles referencing the story (Jane's and UKDJ) have been removed. Bit late for that now! :lol:

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 28 Sep 2018, 14:21

Seems like there is a press embargo going on. Jane's link has gone dead and other media reports have mysteriously vanished.... :?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby albedo » 28 Sep 2018, 14:38

SKB wrote:Seems like there is a press embargo going on. Jane's link has gone dead and other media reports have mysteriously vanished.... :?


Presumably the Tory conference doesn't start until Sunday?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Sep 2018, 14:52

albedo wrote:Presumably the Tory conference doesn't start until Sunday?


Corby unashamedly took the line seen here first "when Britain used to rule the waves; and wave the rules"
- let's see what the speech writers wearing blue will make of it... the vid would make for a nice background, must admit

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Sep 2018, 14:52

albedo wrote:Presumably the Tory conference doesn't start until Sunday?


Corby unashamedly took the line seen here first "when Britain used to rule the waves; and wave the rules"
- let's see what the speech writers wearing blue will make of it... the vid would make for a nice background, must admit

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 28 Sep 2018, 14:54

Someone came to second thoughts about a posting? As mine was halted. to give a chance to see it, and there was none (except mine in double :roll: )

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 28 Sep 2018, 14:59

Image
The Tory party conference begins Sunday 30th September, and ends Wednesday 3rd October with the leaders speech.
Some cough sweets on standby and some stronger magnetic letters to be used this year?!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 28 Sep 2018, 14:59

10 years in the planning and it turns into a media shambles only in the mod!


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