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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Tempest414
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 11 Dec 2020, 10:55

Timmymagic wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:But as said the ITF aircraft and all the little clever boxes can fly to the UK for the trials. However as we know this is all down to money and the MOD clearly fill they can live with the delay maybe at this time it is more important to do as much sea trials work as poss on crowsnet ahead of the 2021 deployment and after which can be done in UK waters so still a lot of good work can be done by POW in home waters


The ITF aircraft are essentially a shared resource. Which is a very sensible idea. It could be US purchased aircraft performing trials for UK purposes on 1 day, with UK aircraft performing trials for the US the next. This is far more efficient. This sort of work is programmed in years ahead of time. Sending the test aircraft and equipment over to the UK will not have been programmed in to the timeline, it would add significant cost and, crucially, time into those arrangements. It just might not be possible to shift everything else off to the right in order to accommodate that. As far as I am aware there has never been any intention to bring the ITF aircraft to the UK, with the probable exception of when they have finished their working lives and they get put into Duxford, Cosford and Hendon.


The trials would have been book in last year as you point out and a number of days given to it the aircraft would be flown to the carrier for this the carrier would have sailed into port to pick up the black boxes that had been moved in from the test centre so load them on a truck or a C-17 the time to move the kit and aircraft to the carrier is only a few hours different. of course aircraft hours cost and we are back to money but what is the cost of sending POW to the US

topman
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby topman » 11 Dec 2020, 13:11

It won't be that simple. Tests and trials are usually carried out in certain place for good reason. Some of the infrastructure will only exist in one place. Its not just a couple of boxes, then there's the people. If the particular trial can't meet the time line then there will plenty of other work on.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 11 Dec 2020, 14:14

Timmymagic wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:Why? what will POW get from a trip to the US


The further trials using the ITF aircraft to prove the SRVL concept for 1. They've been fairly limited to date. PoW off the East Coast of the US with the ITF aircraft was going to do a lot more, including work with the Bedford Array. We can probably put the arrival of SRVL in operational service back at least a year now, probably more. Although it has to be said that SRVL is not really a time critical piece of work anymore, as with any UK planned munitions to be integrated this side of 2030 there is no chance of a UK F-35B approaching a weight where SRVL would be required for bring back.


Huh? The aircraft can be loaded up today with enough qualified bombs, fuel and missiles to hit max TO weight. There was a photo of one from QEs deployment to the US though that was done to exercise the loading and not flying, arrangements.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Dec 2020, 14:56

That
Ron5 wrote: There was a photo of one from QEs deployment to the US though that was done to exercise the loading

would be much more interesting than these photos https://www.wearethemighty.com/app/uplo ... origin.jpg from the Mktng Dept

Tempest414
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 11 Dec 2020, 17:18

topman wrote:It won't be that simple. Tests and trials are usually carried out in certain place for good reason. Some of the infrastructure will only exist in one place. Its not just a couple of boxes, then there's the people. If the particular trial can't meet the time line then there will plenty of other work on.


I would agree however for the test aircraft and kit to get to the carrier on the East coast they have to come from the West coast and I have been doing some digging and it turns out the kit and team is flown from West to East coast

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 11 Dec 2020, 17:59

Ron5 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:Why? what will POW get from a trip to the US


The further trials using the ITF aircraft to prove the SRVL concept for 1. They've been fairly limited to date. PoW off the East Coast of the US with the ITF aircraft was going to do a lot more, including work with the Bedford Array. We can probably put the arrival of SRVL in operational service back at least a year now, probably more. Although it has to be said that SRVL is not really a time critical piece of work anymore, as with any UK planned munitions to be integrated this side of 2030 there is no chance of a UK F-35B approaching a weight where SRVL would be required for bring back.


Huh? The aircraft can be loaded up today with enough qualified bombs, fuel and missiles to hit max TO weight. There was a photo of one from QEs deployment to the US though that was done to exercise the loading and not flying, arrangements.


A F35B has been loaded to 60K lbs on the qe carrier?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Dec 2020, 18:12

Ron5 wrote:Huh? The aircraft can be loaded up today with enough qualified bombs, fuel and missiles to hit max TO weight. There was a photo of one from QEs deployment to the US though that was done to exercise the loading and not flying, arrangements.


F-35B max take off is >60,000lb.
Empty weight = 35,000lb
Max fuel = 13,500lb
Max UK weapon loadout now = 4,058lb's (2 Asraam, 2 Amraam C-5, 6 Paveway IV)
Max UK weapon loadout 2026 = 4,988lb's (2 Asraam, 2 Meteor, 8 Spear, 4 Paveway IV)

Even with pylon weights added in (figure 600lbs tops) we're well adrift from the max takeoff weight, and within VL limits for bringback if fuel is burnt. Truth is when Storm Shadow was dropped as an integration effort the need for SRVL pretty much vanished, with the possible exception of landing on in the Persian Gulf on a hot day in mid-summer.

The above max UK weapon load won't change unless we:
a) Buy the Gun Pod (about 600lb's of weight)
b) Use a multiple ejector rack for 4 x Spear on the inner and mid wing pylons (no plans to at present)
c) Buy something bigger than Paveway IV.

P.S. - Should add that I'm pretty sure that no other user can hit max takeoff weight with currently cleared stores either. The USMC has 1,000lb JDAM that can be carried internally, but I've yet to see a USMC jet carrying 1,000lb JDAM external (not saying they can't though..) and no sight of 2,000lb JDAM. IF they could though they could hit a max load of 10,370lb's (25mm Gun Pod, 2 x AIM-9X, 2 x AIM-120C7, 4 x 1,000lb JDAM and 2 x 2,000lb JDAM. And thats still lower than Max Take Off Weight. To hit that figure JSOW and External Tanks need to be integrated.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 11 Dec 2020, 18:28

SW1 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:Why? what will POW get from a trip to the US


The further trials using the ITF aircraft to prove the SRVL concept for 1. They've been fairly limited to date. PoW off the East Coast of the US with the ITF aircraft was going to do a lot more, including work with the Bedford Array. We can probably put the arrival of SRVL in operational service back at least a year now, probably more. Although it has to be said that SRVL is not really a time critical piece of work anymore, as with any UK planned munitions to be integrated this side of 2030 there is no chance of a UK F-35B approaching a weight where SRVL would be required for bring back.


Huh? The aircraft can be loaded up today with enough qualified bombs, fuel and missiles to hit max TO weight. There was a photo of one from QEs deployment to the US though that was done to exercise the loading and not flying, arrangements.


A F35B has been loaded to 60K lbs on the qe carrier?


I misspoke, I meant max VL weight on a hot day in the Indian Ocean. OK smarty pants?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 11 Dec 2020, 18:31

Timmymagic wrote:b) Use a multiple ejector rack for 4 x Spear on the inner and mid wing pylons (no plans to at present)


Does this exist/ been tested (the latter likely not)?

An afterthought:
Ron5 wrote:I misspoke
... the statement is inoperative :roll:

Ron5
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 11 Dec 2020, 18:34

Timmymagic wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Huh? The aircraft can be loaded up today with enough qualified bombs, fuel and missiles to hit max TO weight. There was a photo of one from QEs deployment to the US though that was done to exercise the loading and not flying, arrangements.


F-35B max take off is >60,000lb.
Empty weight = 35,000lb
Max fuel = 13,500lb
Max UK weapon loadout now = 4,058lb's (2 Asraam, 2 Amraam C-5, 6 Paveway IV)
Max UK weapon loadout 2026 = 4,988lb's (2 Asraam, 2 Meteor, 8 Spear, 4 Paveway IV)

Even with pylon weights added in (figure 600lbs tops) we're well adrift from the max takeoff weight, and within VL limits for bringback if fuel is burnt. Truth is when Storm Shadow was dropped as an integration effort the need for SRVL pretty much vanished, with the possible exception of landing on in the Persian Gulf on a hot day in mid-summer.

The above max UK weapon load won't change unless we:
a) Buy the Gun Pod (about 600lb's of weight)
b) Use a multiple ejector rack for 4 x Spear on the inner and mid wing pylons (no plans to at present)
c) Buy something bigger than Paveway IV.


Pretty much irrelevant :D

PS You should add drop tanks to the list.
PPS Landing on a hot day in a hot place is the reason d'etre for SRVL so making that the exception is kinda weird.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Timmymagic » 11 Dec 2020, 18:50

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Does this exist/ been tested (the latter likely not)?


No. MBDA have shown triple, quad and hexa racks for Spear and SmartGlider (the triple appears to be an adaptation of the Brimstone rack). US uses the BRU-61/A rack for 4 SDB1 and will do for SDBII. But its not cleared for F-35 yet.

Ron5 wrote:PS You should add drop tanks to the list.


Which non-existent F-35 drop tanks should I add?

Ron5 wrote:PPS Landing on a hot day in a hot place is the reason d'etre for SRVL so making that the exception is kinda weird.


How many times do we actually think that will happen? What is the cost and risk to develop SRVL vs. the actual likelihood of it being needed and the cost of dumped munitions if we didn't...

PhillyJ
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby PhillyJ » 12 Dec 2020, 19:37

Nipper update, spoke to him yesterday face to face and between myself and his DetCo, WO, PO and LH, that have been with him from his arrival at Rosyth, he is going to stick with it.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 13 Dec 2020, 06:36

PhillyJ wrote:Nipper update, spoke to him yesterday face to face and between myself and his DetCo, WO, PO and LH, that have been with him from his arrival at Rosyth, he is going to stick with it.


I hope he's rewarded for his decision with a 2021 that's a lot more exciting than 2020 for him.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby bobp » 13 Dec 2020, 11:14

After all the excitement and speculation QE gets its 3rd Phalanx......


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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 13 Dec 2020, 14:28

Is it color matched to the others tho?

Scimitar54
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Scimitar54 » 13 Dec 2020, 16:59

Two Red and One Green? :mrgreen:

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 13 Dec 2020, 17:11

Guess: White or grey?
ImageImageImageImage
Gotcha...! :mrgreen:

Scimitar54
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Scimitar54 » 13 Dec 2020, 17:12

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby bobp » 13 Dec 2020, 18:37

SKB wrote:Guess: White or grey?


All kind of cute so I will opt for the Minion

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby PhillyJ » 14 Dec 2020, 00:44

Ron5 wrote:I hope he's rewarded for his decision with a 2021 that's a lot more exciting than 2020 for him.
me too, kind of my fault as when his 2 years were up on PWLS I said put in for another 2 as it was going places and she would be a capital ship at some point.

topman
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby topman » 14 Dec 2020, 05:52

PhillyJ wrote:
Ron5 wrote:I hope he's rewarded for his decision with a 2021 that's a lot more exciting than 2020 for him.
me too, kind of my fault as when his 2 years were up on PWLS I said put in for another 2 as it was going places and she would be a capital ship at some point.


Is 2 years a standard posting in the navy?

bobp
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby bobp » 14 Dec 2020, 06:41

PhillyJ wrote:me too, kind of my fault as when his 2 years were up on PWLS I said put in for another 2 as it was going places and she would be a capital ship at some point.


I am sure that PWLS will go on a trip similar to QE's at some point. A few more F35B would be welcome as well to allow that to happen. Just unfortunate that water and electric panels do not mix.

PhillyJ
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby PhillyJ » 14 Dec 2020, 12:11

topman wrote:Is 2 years a standard posting in the navy?
Seems to be on ships, yes. He even said he wouldn't mind going back to Rosyth, he's that fed up of Pompey!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 14 Dec 2020, 15:26

bobp wrote:
PhillyJ wrote:me too, kind of my fault as when his 2 years were up on PWLS I said put in for another 2 as it was going places and she would be a capital ship at some point.


I am sure that PWLS will go on a trip similar to QE's at some point. A few more F35B would be welcome as well to allow that to happen. Just unfortunate that water and electric panels do not mix.


I still don't understand why it seemingly took so long for the leak to be discovered and plugged. Probably will never see an explanation.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Timmymagic » 14 Dec 2020, 19:24

Ron5 wrote:I still don't understand why it seemingly took so long for the leak to be discovered and plugged. Probably will never see an explanation.


Thought it was a burst fire main pipe under lots of pressure?


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