UK Defence Forum

Haven't you guys realised yet ,com'on we sell something with jam promised tomorrow and it doesn't happen ,the only thing is we given away yet another asset for peanuts ,yes rn if we give pow away you can have 2 lpd really honest ...lol,then gets down to one ,then cos you got that you don't really need Albion and bulwark , com'on get with the program folks it only goes one way and if you believe anything else lol

To sell one of them would be ridiculous. The hard bit was to build them. But we do have history for doing mad things in procurement and disposal. I can't think of a Nation with a worse record?

Survivability of carriers, a near future realistic threat?

The new US DoD SDA, Space Defense Agency, planning to field low earth orbiting, LEO, constellation of dozens of satellites to detect and target ships providing the beyond-line-of-site targeting for ground and ship based weapon systems eg anti-ship missiles, as well as tracking of advanced missile threats such as hypersonic glide weapons. To launch in 2022 to demonstrate capability to share data using the venerable Link 16 to start from space to Navy ships.

SDA plan to use LEO between 800 and 1,000 kilometers and a few hundred kilograms and cost in the tens of millions of dollars each and expects its architecture to consist of thousands of satellites for its seven different layer of systems including the detect and target layer.

Other companies LEO satellites with synthetic aperture radar / colour video eg UK Carbonite-2, Finnish Iceye <100 kg, US Capella Space, aiming to reduce cost and to the size of a shoe box, current missions such as to track fishing boats so as to pinpoint the large number illegal trawlers fishing in protected waters, 30 satellites said to give world wide coverage fifteen times a day.

The high numbers, hundreds, thousands in LEO will enable them to have a much higher probability to survive attack from anti-satellites and be relatively easily replaced than the limited number of big satellites like the GPS at 2K to 3k kg each which take years to build. Expect operational problem will be in downloading info from satellites, analysing data and communicating targeting info to ships in limited time window for anti-ship missile seeker basket to be effective when reaches last known position of target when fired from ship or aircraft.

Don't doubt China will be building similar system, one question is how will warships eg carriers-QNLZ/PoW be able to defend themselves against being targeted based on LEO reconnaissance satellites as they have no way of taking them all out, even if it had radar capability to target the satellites in LEO at 800-1,000 km (the radar RF emissions would be another big red flag to Chinese to say here I am) and possibly targeted by a very long range Meteor variant, with its limited numbers and costly, stock would soon be exhausted, China would just launch another rocket with up to sixty (as SpaceX) or so new low cost LEO satellites.

PS Musk's SpaceX planning with its Starlink for world internet access to launch a possible max of 42,000 227 to 260 kg satellites in LEO ~550 to 1,100 km , launched 182 to date, astronomers complaining numbers will seriously degrade their observations from earth based astronomical observatories.

From <https://breakingdefense.com/2020/01/sda ... 1574325418>

A Navy can't defend against that, a commander will have to act as though the enemy knows where they are all the time. That will force the carrier to operate from much further away from shore, requiring longer ranged aircraft.

(Also under water becomes much more important)

Basic rule of thumb to sit at the top table of the UN.

1. Must be a nuclear power with ICBM capability.
2. Must have the conventional deterrent... carriers
3. Must have SSN’s.
I feel the RAF maybe getting their WE177’s back as well or whatever modern incarnation it takes. I’ve always felt with no evidence whatsoever, that they’re kicking about somewhere.

cockneyjock1974 wrote:I feel the RAF maybe getting their WE177’s back as well or whatever modern incarnation it takes. I’ve always felt with no evidence whatsoever, that they’re kicking about somewhere.

Maybe we could take over the Belgian ones, if they decide to get rid of them

Alternatively we could of signed up to the UN charter in 1945 that ensured our p5 seat. When neither ICBMs or ssn’s existed...........

cockneyjock1974 wrote: I feel the RAF maybe getting their WE177’s back as well or whatever modern incarnation it takes. I’ve always felt with no evidence whatsoever, that they’re kicking about somewhere.

Not. Happening.

Are you trolling or pissed?

NickC wrote:Survivability of carriers, a near future realistic threat?

The new US DoD SDA, Space Defense Agency, planning to field low earth orbiting, LEO, constellation of dozens of satellites to detect and target ships providing the beyond-line-of-site targeting for ground and ship based weapon systems eg anti-ship missiles, as well as tracking of advanced missile threats such as hypersonic glide weapons. To launch in 2022 to demonstrate capability to share data using the venerable Link 16 to start from space to Navy ships.

SDA plan to use LEO between 800 and 1,000 kilometers and a few hundred kilograms and cost in the tens of millions of dollars each and expects its architecture to consist of thousands of satellites for its seven different layer of systems including the detect and target layer.

Other companies LEO satellites with synthetic aperture radar / colour video eg UK Carbonite-2, Finnish Iceye <100 kg, US Capella Space, aiming to reduce cost and to the size of a shoe box, current missions such as to track fishing boats so as to pinpoint the large number illegal trawlers fishing in protected waters, 30 satellites said to give world wide coverage fifteen times a day.

The high numbers, hundreds, thousands in LEO will enable them to have a much higher probability to survive attack from anti-satellites and be relatively easily replaced than the limited number of big satellites like the GPS at 2K to 3k kg each which take years to build. Expect operational problem will be in downloading info from satellites, analysing data and communicating targeting info to ships in limited time window for anti-ship missile seeker basket to be effective when reaches last known position of target when fired from ship or aircraft.

Don't doubt China will be building similar system, one question is how will warships eg carriers-QNLZ/PoW be able to defend themselves against being targeted based on LEO reconnaissance satellites as they have no way of taking them all out, even if it had radar capability to target the satellites in LEO at 800-1,000 km (the radar RF emissions would be another big red flag to Chinese to say here I am) and possibly targeted by a very long range Meteor variant, with its limited numbers and costly, stock would soon be exhausted, China would just launch another rocket with up to sixty (as SpaceX) or so new low cost LEO satellites.

PS Musk's SpaceX planning with its Starlink for world internet access to launch a possible max of 42,000 227 to 260 kg satellites in LEO ~550 to 1,100 km , launched 182 to date, astronomers complaining numbers will seriously degrade their observations from earth based astronomical observatories.

From <https://breakingdefense.com/2020/01/sda ... 1574325418>

Alternatively there is this article I had previously posted with a query about this being used to block observation of missile launches
https://www.defencetalk.com/russian-spa ... nce-73158/

downsizer wrote:

cockneyjock1974 wrote: I feel the RAF maybe getting their WE177’s back as well or whatever modern incarnation it takes. I’ve always felt with no evidence whatsoever, that they’re kicking about somewhere.

Not. Happening.

Are you trolling or pissed?

Neither like I said just what I feel. Absolutely no disrespect to the light blues.

cockneyjock1974 wrote:I feel the RAF maybe getting their WE177’s back as well or whatever modern incarnation it takes. I’ve always felt with no evidence whatsoever, that they’re kicking about somewhere.

I think there is one at the Explosion museum in Gosport where Priddys Hard used to be!

PhillyJ wrote: I think there is one at the Explosion museum in Gosport where Priddys Hard used to be!

Yep, although its a training round example.

https://mechtraveller.com/2019/06/revie ... r-gosport/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WE.177

shark bait wrote:A Navy can't defend against that, a commander will have to act as though the enemy knows where they are all the time. That will force the carrier to operate from much further away from shore, requiring longer ranged aircraft.

(Also under water becomes much more important)

Not sure. As a natural extension, anything flying in the sky will be always monitored within 20-30 years. Aircraft and missiles, especially the fast ones, is a strong IR emitter. For example, hypersonic missiles will be an IR "torch", very very bright.

Navies will be able to engage them from 1000 km away, using SM-8(?) or Aster-200(?) in near future.

There will be no surprise attack then. I agree longer range will be a key in future, in both offense and defense.

SKB wrote:Yep, although its a training round example.

That's what they say, don't forget this is the organisation that forgot to tell us that HMS Alliance was a Robot in disguise!

Looks like tomorrow is going to be a busy day for the Tug Boats...

7 0945 LNTM 14/20 (QE TRANSIT) IN FORCE
8 1115 - 1245 CHANNEL CLOSED TO INBOUND AND OUTBOUND VESSELS
9 1115 - 1145 SMALL BOAT CHANNEL CLOSED TO INBOUND AND OUTBOUND VESSELS
10 1115 HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH PRJ OSB P & TA FORCEFUL, TEMPEST INDEPENDENT, INDULGENT, CHISTINA, SUZANNE MR A BANNISTER
11 1200 HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH OSB NAB P & TA FORCEFUL, TEMPEST INDEPENDENT, INDULGENT, CHISTINA, SUZANNE MR A BANNISTER
12 1230 MV BAIE DE SEINE PIP OSB
13 1300 HMS EXPLOIT 4BII OSB
14 1345 MV CAP FINISTERE OSB PIP
15 1530 HMS EXPLOIT OSB PIP
16 1600 HMS PRINCE OF WALES VJ PRJ BOWS N T TEMPEST, INDEPENDENT, INDULGENT, CHRISTINA, SUZANNE MR A BANNISTER

Many people seem to think Jerry Kyd was QE's first CO. Indeed he was the first seagoing CO, but Jerry Kyd was not the very first CO of QE.

That honour went to Captain Simon Petitt, who was Senior Naval Officer from October 2012 up until Jerry Kyd succeeded him on 24 May 2016 (see page 102), taking QE to sea in 2017.

A 2014 ACA video of Captain Simon Petitt, who I think deserves more recognition:


Petitt is presently Chief Engineer to the Commander of Portsmouth Flotilla and has the rank of Captain (Engineering).

cockneyjock1974 wrote:that they’re kicking about somewhere.

The WE 117s are stored stripped in Sellafield .The problem is that when Blair / Brown came to power they needed replacing or refurbishing to be effective. With a expensive cost . The then government had better priority's so offered enhanced sub munitions and conventual improved weapons to cover the capability requirement. Claiming that providing a few Trident missiles payloads would be modified for Sub strategic / tactical requirement. This was subsequently dropped. I doubt that we will ever get tactical nuclear weapons unless they belong to uncle Sam leased like the Thor missiles. Then you would have to modify the carriers with separate lead lined magazine and associated safety equipment . The other question is are the B Lightnings wired to support Tactical weapons. .

I am hearing QE will sail sometime tomorrow.

S M H wrote: The other question is are the B Lightnings wired to support Tactical weapons.

Some of the nuclear-designated countries/ NATO squadrons are getting 'A's
- Germany looks like getting something else... that is a rather big question; how to maintain the old accord (and capability, with dual keys)

(Vermilion Studios) 23 January 2020

donald_of_tokyo wrote:There will be no surprise attack then.

True in parts, but remember a carrier can travel 40 miles between satellite revisits, a missile could travel thousands of miles in the same time, so I'd still put the advantage on the missile.

And this is another reason why extra range is important, it gives the carrier group longer to observe and more attempts to take out a missile.

PoW will be moved from VJ to PRJ (Bows North) at 16:00 according to QHM Portsmouth.
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/qhm/portsm ... 24/01/2020

10:00 - QE still berthed at PRJ, no tug movements yet.
10:15 - Tugs moving into position around QE.
11:00 - QE off the PRJ wall and about to wind bows south.
11:20 - LIVE video stream activated (see video below)
11:33 - QE completes 180 degree clockwise wind to bows south
11:44 - QE exits Portsmouth Harbour, passing the Round Tower & Fort Blockhouse. CO Captain Angus Essenhigh takes QE to sea for first time.
11:45 - LIVE stream ends.

LIVE

(PortsHistDockyard) 24th January 2020

HMS Queen Elizabeth is departing HM Naval Base Portsmouth! Sailing past her sister, HMS Prince of Wales, she will be conducting her first trials of the F-35 jets in UK waters.

The aircraft from 207 Squadron will be conducting the first F-35 pilot Carrier Qualifications and Landing Signal Officer Qualifications for instructors.

seaspear wrote:

NickC wrote:Survivability of carriers, a near future realistic threat?

Alternatively there is this article I had previously posted with a query about this being used to block observation of missile launches
https://www.defencetalk.com/russian-spa ... nce-73158/

Thanks for link, as always will look to counter measures to negate the effects of the new tech, in this case the dozens/hundreds of light and low cost LEO reconnaissance satellites, eg as China and Russia have moved to longer wavelength radars to negate the stealth of F-22 and F-35.

The outlined Russian proposal looks vague and maybe require large land based facilities to achieve aim, not quite clear how they can jam the satellite infra-red or video as passive systems, can see possibility of jamming radar.