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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
RAF>FAN
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby RAF>FAN » 19 Jan 2020, 06:51

I'm sure I read somewhere that India were interested in the "design and plans" for QEC Class rather than purchasing an actual ship but who knows...


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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby jonas » 19 Jan 2020, 08:56

They are still sniffing around :- :shh:


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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Jan 2020, 09:24

India has been promised EMALS by the US and "India interested in Integrated Electric Propulsion and possibly Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier design" the first within the quote would go nicely with that direction
- the latter is just a sign that for years India was ping-ponging the design support between France and Italy
- perhaps they feel more confident to go in the QE direction, as those beauties already went to the EMALS shop, to try it on. So there's blue prints to dig up, though we should charge at least the 100 mil for them that France paid for sharing the design (for their planned nuclear carrier, which is again in the works, but with a different design as a basis)

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby inch » 19 Jan 2020, 10:29

Not sure if qe design more beneficial to India altho be a great asset or sticking with France new design for c de qualle replacement as that's will be an emals design straight from the get go ,plus they could tie in with the new carrier fighter France will build replacement for rafale that India already have ,kind of makes more sense them sticking with France altho don't get me wrong seeing another qe derivative design in India would be good

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Simon82 » 19 Jan 2020, 12:02

inch wrote:Not sure if qe design more beneficial to India altho be a great asset or sticking with France new design for c de qualle replacement as that's will be an emals design straight from the get go ,plus they could tie in with the new carrier fighter France will build replacement for rafale that India already have ,kind of makes more sense them sticking with France altho don't get me wrong seeing another qe derivative design in India would be good


I suspect it depends upon the timeframes. I don’t think the Indians will want to be prototyping the new French aircraft carrier. No doubt paying handsomely for the privilege of trouble shooting the design on the behalf of the French Navy. If the Indians are prepared to wait for the French to build one first however, that might be different, but the INS Vishal is supposed to enter service in the early 2030s, so the timing would be pretty tight. The Queen Elizabeth Class design appears to be working and there are now two display models to tour and view. The hull and drivetrains are de-risked and the USN are busy sorting out the teething problems with the EMALS and AAG. The ‘only’ risk is to marry the ship and the CATOBAR equipment. The addition of an angle deck has been previously thought through and designs exist and should be much easier to implement in a new build than trying to convert a mostly complete vessel, as the British briefly (and expensively) contemplated in 2010-2012.

In regards to sharing aircraft development the Indians seem pretty keen on building up their own indigenous aviation industry and I suspect they will want to use their new twin engined naval fighter, which is currently in development from the less than successful navalised LCA(N) Tejas programme and is supposed to be flying by 2026, as the backbone of the carrier’s air wing. The Rafale replacement (a navalised derivative of the European FCAS programme) isn’t due to be in service until the late 2030s/early 2040s, so doesn’t really tie up in terms of timescale.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 19 Jan 2020, 12:39

Getting HMS Hermes back to Portsmouth for free should be made part of any proposed India-UK carrier deal.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby inch » 19 Jan 2020, 13:39

Lots of good points simon82 ,just had another thought that quite possibly the French design will probably be bigger than the qe class design by how much I don't know but you can be sure as heck France going to build it bigger than the qe lol,so just for carrying capabilities might appeal to India with China about to embark on huge future carriers after the first one or two qe size , but yes who knows what India plans are ,all be very interesting to see which way they go and France / German new carriers for that matter

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Jan 2020, 04:37

inch wrote:Not sure if qe design more beneficial to India altho be a great asset
I was trying to point out that a ship design is basically a system of systems, just lifting out a few that have already been integrated and tried can be a significant means of risk reduction
Simon82 wrote: No doubt paying handsomely for the privilege of trouble shooting the design on the behalf of the French Navy.
They must have learned from the navalising of the Mig29... they paid for it and it is still half baked (in carrier use)
Simon82 wrote: INS Vishal is supposed to enter service in the early 2030s, so the timing would be pretty tight
Indeed, even with a 37% parallel build (where did I pick that one from :?: ) with the French PA, would produce abt a 10-yr gap
Simon82 wrote: The ‘only’ risk is to marry the ship and the CATOBAR equipment.
But, but... we've costed it :D
inch wrote: quite possibly the French design will probably be bigger than the qe class design by how much I don't know
Rafale XL was what came out of early sketches for FCAS - the final spec may turn out to be entirely different exc. for its size - but a carrier to match would be that much bigger that the number of nuclear reactors (based on what the French have) would have to go up from two to three.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SDL » 20 Jan 2020, 11:51


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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby RichardIC » 20 Jan 2020, 17:59




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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 20 Jan 2020, 18:57

HMNB Portsmouth has tweeted that QE isn't sailing tomorrow, the 21st. Another sailing date to be confirmed.
https://twitter.com/hmnbportsmouth?lang=en

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby swoop » 21 Jan 2020, 08:10

serge750 wrote:... they could build their own in india for as they are finishing IAC 1, maybe starting in a couple of years to keep their carrier building skills? would be good to see a fully CATOBAR version in indian service with the "made in india" badge, maybe in the late 20's or early 30's

Never happen.
The rampant corruption, meddling and ineptitude involved in the Indian military procurement process will prevent anything remotely like this happening.
Just look at their "home grown" artillery programme. The subs are much the same.
The only reason that a large project like this would be favoured, is because a few people will immediately see this as a superb opportunity for backhanders and becoming quite wealthy at the taxpayer's expense.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby jonas » 21 Jan 2020, 09:22

Well with all the talk of India and the carriers, looks like ours are once again a bone of contention. Will it never end. :thumbdown:

Boris Johnson calls off meeting on defence review after policy split



George Parker and Helen Warrell in London yesterday


Boris Johnson cancelled a National Security Council meeting at short notice last week after disagreement at the heart of government over the scope of a major defence review, intended to shape Britain’s priorities until 2030.

One senior defence official said the NSC meeting was shelved because of tensions between the Cabinet Office and Downing Street over the direction the defence review was taking.

The official cited particular concerns over the paper’s focus on how Britain could use “soft power” to boost the UK’s global presence after Brexit, neglecting conventional military forces.

Nick Carter, chief of the defence staff, is said by Whitehall insiders to favour a more traditional approach to the review, focused around the role of the armed forces and military equipment procurement.

Dominic Cummings, Mr Johnson’s chief adviser, has pushed for a shift in defence strategy focused on the use of advanced technology, drones and artificial intelligence, but officials said that he was not behind the cancellation of the meeting.

He has previously called Ministry of Defence procurement “disastrous” and has scorned “mediocre” officials; he has been particularly critical of the acquisition, at a cost of £6.2bn, of two aircraft carriers.

“It’s very unusual to call off a National Security Council meeting at short notice,” said one person briefed on the disagreement. “They simply couldn’t agree what the starting point of the defence review should be.”

Downing Street refuses to discuss NSC meetings but officials confirmed that the meeting last Wednesday was postponed. They insisted the move was “not out of the ordinary” and was made because the prime minister had concluded that discussion papers were “not ready”.

The defence review — which Downing Street wants concluded by the autumn — is seen by experts as a once-in-a-generation opportunity for the UK to decide a definitive direction for its armed forces.

One of the biggest decisions is whether to maintain Britain’s two aircraft carriers and the naval forces needed to protect them, or to find savings from these resource-intensive assets to spend elsewhere.

The Ministry of Defence is keen to invest more in military intelligence and also to boost the UK’s cyber arsenal, hiring more hackers and IT professionals to help improve British operations in the cyber sphere, according to a senior official in the department.

However, this is likely to lead to a split with armed forces chiefs who want to focus on upgrading more traditional military hardware.

The tensions between the National Security secretariat and No 10 could raise fresh questions over the dual role played by Mark Sedwill who doubles up as cabinet secretary, the most senior civil servant in Whitehall, and Mr Johnson’s national security adviser.

The Times on Sunday.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 21 Jan 2020, 09:34

Not sounding good

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby inch » 21 Jan 2020, 10:13

Told you ,you cant trust them pen pushers ,if they think they can save a bob or 2 by giving a carrier away that's what they will do . politicians know no zero about defence and the most of the people advising them don't either I suspect.the mod are disorganized by all accounts we keep reading needing to get their house in order and the green eye of interservice is legendary Also top military people advicing the government depending which branch they come from won't defend another branch could come into play somewhat who knows,to yes men in government ,so yes I def think one of the carriers is going ,maybe to India or not but looks like they are interested ,they might have already had a behind scenes nod by someone in government that the carrier could be there's at a give away price and that's why they showing potential buyers round now ,who knows ?cos that's the kind of thing they do .

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby cockneyjock1974 » 21 Jan 2020, 10:25

I’m still holding out hope that cuts don’t hold with the Brexit global Britain power house message. Plus I don’t trust any reporting from the MSM.
More than likely this is a row about how to shake up the MOD than anything else IMO.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Timmymagic » 21 Jan 2020, 11:53

cockneyjock1974 wrote:I’m still holding out hope that cuts don’t hold with the Brexit global Britain power house message. Plus I don’t trust any reporting from the MSM.


Agreed. I think the political optics of selling a QE Class would be awful for Boris so I suspect they're safe. I don't think Cummings is as smart or as supported as he thinks he is, there is a fair bit of hubris there.

I'm more worried about FSS and the overall F-35 buy which as ever is very quiet...we really do need 70 minimum to make CEPP a reality. If not it will all be for naught.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 21 Jan 2020, 12:38

I'm not worried about the QE, the FSS or any other new ship build programmes. They are totemic, and Boris has sounded off about wanting to increase ship manufacturing in the UK. I'm not worried too much about the RAF either, but I'm more about the Army head count and a number it's programmes. Hopefully, all will be well and we will see an uplift of funding in the end.
Sorry for straying off topic

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 21 Jan 2020, 15:16

You “a aren’t trying hard enough, what a headline it would make ,global Britain strengthens trade and military ties with commonwealth partner India thru the sale of xxxx carrier and will in future allow us to land planes on it when we head out east.......

Personal plan requires lots more money, equipment plan stuffed full of programs there is insufficient funds for, “efficiency” promises that don’t exist, hasn’t changed since the last review that was to difficult to make decisions on, in fact probably got worse. Budget has and is set for this term at 2% plus yearly increases of .5% above inflation.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby inch » 21 Jan 2020, 16:08

So are you proposing selling a carrier a good idea SW1?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby abc123 » 21 Jan 2020, 16:21

Yeah, really a "Global Britain", starting with "Global PoW". :lol:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 21 Jan 2020, 17:43

inch wrote:So are you proposing selling a carrier a good idea SW1?


Dumb question - he's RAF.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby inch » 21 Jan 2020, 17:47

Ahhh I see

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jensy » 21 Jan 2020, 18:31

Good thing they never switched the name to Ark Royal. With the currently royal crisis, I can't imagine anyone in govt. wants to see headlines of: "UK to sell Prince of Wales to India".

Then there's the practical element of India firstly being able to build their own carriers and the configuration they favour. At the very least, an angled deck and arrestor gear will be required, and most likely catapults as well for their future air wings.

How cheap can we sell a £3bn ship to make it worth spending half as much again on conversion? They would be better off low-balling the soon to be retired USS Nimitz at that price. If the UK were to sell POW at a significantly lower price than £3bn it would be like Gordon Brown selling off the gold reserves all over again.

If not India, the only other option would be to sell to a current or future F-35b customer:

USA - Not going to happen.
Italy - Just got a lovely new F-35 capable LHD plus a CVL.
Spain - Not even committed to F-35 and has downsized to a single LHD.
Singapore - Not going to happen.
South Korea & Japan - Would make sense were it not for both countries having far better shipbuilding capability than us.

As I've said in another topic, the best way to keep the carriers safe is to use them as visibly and frequently as possible. I hope these Carrier Qualification trials are a great success and publicised heavily. A carrier capable UAV along the lines of the V-247 should be a priority if this drone obsession continues. Though the Protector and Watchkeeper programmes have gone dismally.

I would feel a lot more confident if Penny Mordaunt (or even Gavin) was still Def Sec. rather than the current incumbent, however the entire Cabinet is apparently in the firing line at the moment so there is hope.


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