Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[Ron5]

Diversionary fields were pretty close. It was a real CF.

[ArmChairCivvy]

It was a real CF.

The 1st, the 2nd... or both of them?

I know the land base was not far; people with sharp tongues are actually saying that all combat missions were flown out of them (or the one). And that the role of the carrier was just for show, and ferrying the planes that could have been flown in just as well (may be the Granite missiles from the "escort" were used to good effect in Aleppo... no news reals about that, though).

[Bring Deeps]

I suppose this links into the argument that one of the advantages of the F35B over the F35C is the (relatively) less onerous qualification regime required for the pilots.

There is no point having cats and traps if you can't keep enough pilots qualified to use them.

Incidentally, when the QE deploys operationally can anyone estimate how many of the 600 air wing will be made of our friends from the USMC? Depending on timing that might free up crew for the POW.

[shark bait]

How may Chinook can QE operate on deck at the same time? Wondering how long it would take to lift the embarked military force of up to 900?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Operational analysis has been done on 10 helo spots. Adm Z did not specify if it was based on using Merlins; results are unknown, too, but I guess we will find out when they paint them

[shark bait]

Yeah that's what I was wondering, by my guesstimating it's for 10 Merlin, not 10 Chinook.

• Chinook requires around 40m clearance,
• QE has flat deck of 230m,
• With the rotors over hanging a bit that's 6,
• Plus 1 in the bottom corner,
• (room for another in the top corner?)

That's in line with that this render suggests;

A commando is 700.

40 * 7 = 280.

Would take thee lifts to move them all. Sound reasonable? Do we have anything more official?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Would take thee lifts to move them all.

To me the density looks so high that take off would be one by one, with the rest idling?

[Aethulwulf]

2017-01-09 18.42.34.jpg

The standard image for the deck layout (the one above comes from Navy News) shows 6 spots; 5 on the port side and 1 starboard aft spot. All these 6 spots are large enough for a Chinook.

The number of personnel/weight any helicopter can lift is very dependant on temperature, altitude and distance to be flown. While a Chinook might be able to lift 50+ marines in ideal conditions, at 40+° C for a 100 nm lift to a landing zone at 1000m, that number can easily drop down to 30 or less.

[Aethulwulf]

A reasonable planning assumption is that 5 Chinooks will lift a total of 150 marines, with a extra 2 Chinooks needed to lift their associated equipment /stores. Given levels of aircraft serviceability, you would probably need at least 1 extra Chinook as a 'spare'. So 7 (+1) Chinooks are needed to lift a force of 150.
To lift 900, you would need 6×(7+1) Chinook lifts (or a force of 48 Chinooks).

Where does your figure of 900 come from?

[downsizer]

Hypothetical fantasies aside, I'd love to know when posters realistically think we're launching an airborne assault of ~900 people?

[Bring Deeps]

849NAS practising in the Gulf ready for transfer to QE:

https://www.navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/15695

[shark bait]

HMS Ocean:Written question - 19050

Q Asked by Dr Julian Lewis(New Forest East)[N] Asked on: 07 December 2015

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, which roles currently fulfilled by HMS Ocean will be carried out by HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales when they enter service; and if he will make a statement.

A Answered by: Mr Philip Dunne Answered on: 15 December 2015

As stated in the Strategic Defence and Security Review (Cm9161), we will enhance a Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carrier to support our amphibious capability. Together with existing amphibious ships of the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary, this will provide the capacity and capability to deploy our amphibious forces.

HMS OCEAN can carry up to 690 Embarked Military Forces (EMF) - Royal Marines and Aviation Group personnel - in addition to her ship's company. She can deploy a variety of helicopter types in multiple combinations as required by her mission and role.
The QEC aircraft carriers can embark up to 900 EMF, in addition to their ship's company, in support of their missions and tasks and a flexible mix of helicopters subject to the operational tasking.

[ArmChairCivvy]

A reasonable planning assumption is that 5 Chinooks will lift a total of 150 marines, with a extra 2 Chinooks needed to lift their associated equipment /stores. Given levels of aircraft serviceability, you would probably need at least 1 extra Chinook as a 'spare'.

Comparison with the French National Concept for Amph. Ops might be useful:
"The CNOA was to assert the French Navy's capability to perform amphibious assaults, withdrawals, demonstrations, and raids. This would allow the French Navy to further integrate into the doctrinal frameworks described by NATO's Allied Tactical Publication 8B (ATP8) and the European Amphibious Initiative. While the CNOA made air capabilities a priority, it also recommended an increase in the number of vehicles and personnel that could be transported and deployed;[6] the CNOA fixed the aim to project a force comprising four combat companies (1,400 men, 280 vehicles, and 30 helicopters) for ten days, in a 100 kilometre-deep sector"
- the interesting design feature is that their amphibs can operate 6 33 ton helos on the deck, but the lifts are only for 13 ton helos; 30 of the latter would approximate to two consequtive waves of Chinooks as per the quote above

[downsizer]

HMS Ocean:Written question - 19050

Q Asked by Dr Julian Lewis(New Forest East)[N] Asked on: 07 December 2015

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, which roles currently fulfilled by HMS Ocean will be carried out by HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales when they enter service; and if he will make a statement.

A Answered by: Mr Philip Dunne Answered on: 15 December 2015

As stated in the Strategic Defence and Security Review (Cm9161), we will enhance a Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carrier to support our amphibious capability. Together with existing amphibious ships of the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary, this will provide the capacity and capability to deploy our amphibious forces.

HMS OCEAN can carry up to 690 Embarked Military Forces (EMF) - Royal Marines and Aviation Group personnel - in addition to her ship's company. She can deploy a variety of helicopter types in multiple combinations as required by her mission and role.
The QEC aircraft carriers can embark up to 900 EMF, in addition to their ship's company, in support of their missions and tasks and a flexible mix of helicopters subject to the operational tasking.

900 includes the airwing, (F35, Merlin, Chinny) so we won't be assaulting with 900 troops then. And as I said earlier, what fantasy scenarios are we air assaulting with that many people?

[Aethulwulf]

Embarked Military Forces (EMF) = Royal Marines and Aviation Group personnel

In an aviation group of, for example, 12 Merlin +3 Chinooks for the lift + 8 Apache & 4 Wildcat for support + 9 Merlin ASW + 5 Merlin Crowsnest, the number of Aviation Group personnel will greatly outnumber the number of Royal Marines.

Of the 900 EMF, fewer than 250 will be Marines, the rest will be Aviation Group personnel.

[shark bait]

I'm referring to the ability to move a Commando unit vertically, which is probably going to take 2 platforms to achieve.

Stems from @Donald's suggestion of having 2 CV and 1 LPH guaranteeing 2 flat-top available at all times. Sound's like a nice idea, although would have to come at the expense of the LPD's, and increasing the reliance on vertical lift. In that scenario, how quickly QE can move people is important, thus the question.

[Frenchie]

An aircraft carrier with its carrier group consisting of an SSN, two anti-submarine frigates, two anti-aircraft destroyers, a supply ship, all that for deploy a few helicopters is a nonsense.

[shark bait]

Except its not a few helicopters.

Its a few helicopters, a couple of F35 squadrons, and a bunch of landing craft. That's a strong combined amphibious force.

[Aethulwulf]

I'm referring to the ability to move a Commando unit vertically, which is probably going to take 2 platforms to achieve.

Stems from @Donald's suggestion of having 2 CV and 1 LPH guaranteeing 2 flat-top available at all times. Sound's like a nice idea, although would have to come at the expense of the LPD's, and increasing the reliance on vertical lift. In that scenario, how quickly QE can move people is important, thus the question.

Sounds like a nonsense idea. One Albion plus two Bays can between them carry 6 LCUs. 6 LCUs can carry 30 Viking vehicles and 150 Marines in a single wave. To lift the same as 6 LCUs would need around 70 Chinooks.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Of the 900 EMF, fewer than 250 will be Marines, the rest will be Aviation Group personnel.

Hence we are back to the same place where we have been many times before: to get anywhere near the French Ops Concept we will need the active Albion and both of those Bays not in the Gulf on MCM support duty.
- 250 plus 305 plus 2 x 365 (voila! 4 companies, with supporting services, ie. those going ashore)

One Albion plus two Bays can between them carry 6 LCUs. 6 LCUs can carry 30 Viking vehicles and 150 Marines in a single wave.

Well, theres the one on the waves and the one in Chinooks will have STOMPed it in the meanwhile. Two more companies to go, depending on the distance to shore this could be mainly a vertical show; the LCUs returning for heavier things and stores. The planning parameter used to be 30 days self-sufficiency, which together with the vehicles made for 10500-11000 lane meters (is the term "linear" also used?)... not all of those necessarily going ashore, but held in reserve
- now, I am not saying the French comparison produces a goal, but it does provide a yard stick

[shark bait]

Never proposed getting rid of the landing craft, its the only way to move vehicles that cant self deploy.

Accepting that, it becomes a reasonable suggestion.

[Aethulwulf]

Never proposed getting rid of the landing craft, its the only way to move vehicles that cant self deploy.

Accepting that, it becomes a reasonable suggestion.

You said the LPH would come at the expense of the LPDs. Without the LPDs, how are the LCUs going to available?

[Frenchie]

Except its not a few helicopters.

Its a few helicopters, a couple of F35 squadrons, and a bunch of landing craft. That's a strong combined amphibious force.

Sorry I did not understand that the F-35s were included in the amphibious force

[shark bait]

Not going to be doing any manoeuvres without massive air power, its an integral part.

[arfah]

Hypothetical fantasies aside, I'd love to know when posters realistically think we're launching an airborne assault of ~900 people?

#IndyRef2