Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Jake1992
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Jake1992 »

inch wrote:Aye you got to give it to the French c dear Gaulle be a long time before we can field 30 uk f35 on our carriers if ever how things tend to pan out and the French been doing it all thru the lean yrs with our invincible/ocean class harrier combo .think the rn we're looking across the channel with great envy when c de Gaulle was built and launched only now yrs later are we getting the qe class and still yrs off before we at c de Gaulle capability ,so fair play to the French on that score
This why a good number of aircraft need to be on board during its first op else it’ll be a PR disaster.

When we can do it on our own IMO there’d need to be at least 20-24 F35Bs when ever deployed for us to not look like a joke, HMG and the MOD need to make this perfectly clear to the RAF

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

In theory, so long as 48 of the F-35s are mandated to the carriers and building up to the carriers, then QE will be capable of what the French do. They have 42 Rafales to make CdG work. With up to 30 being deployed, and the remaining 12 shared between reserve, training, maintenance, and experiments.

So until the UK has whatever follows the 48, then due to the RAF demands, QE will not have 30+ at all outside of an actual war deployment.

It's a prime reason why cutting off at 48 for A's is an awful idea. Because unless all 48 were transferred to the FAA, it would effectively mean that CdG like regular training simple won't happen.

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Tempest414
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Tempest414 »

For me this is why the RN should have 60 F-35b formed into 5 squadron of 10 aircraft to allow 2 squadrons = 20 aircraft for both carriers and a OCU it also means that 1 carrier can surge to 3 squadrons = 30 F35's and the second could keep it 2 squadron or drop to 1.5 squadrons to make room for more Helicopters. The RAF should then get 75 F-35A formed into 4 squadrons of 12 and a OCU of 6 this would leave 10 F-35b and 21 F-35A in the pool . just to be clear the RN's F-35s units would deploy with the full 10 aircraft to there carrier and on return would drop down to 5 per squadron when ashore to allow maintenance and updates to take place

serge750
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by serge750 »

How many times has the CdeG had a aircraft load like that (including super entards) since she has been operational...since 2001,

I personally think if the QEC could operate with mid 20's x F35 + helo's that would be ok with the occasional surge up to 30, the pessimist in me thinks its going to be half that though :(

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Scimitar54 »

What does the optimist in you think?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by serge750 »

Ha ha, i think 20 ish F35 plus helo's ASW + Crowsnest is the optimistic side of me, would still be a good site I think, especially if there's a few Apache's aswell !!! :thumbup:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

serge750 wrote:How many times has the CdeG had a aircraft load like that (including super entards) since she has been operational...since 2001,
Super Etendards kinda skew the numbers, since they are tiny and came from a larger Cold War fleet. But the largest Rafale deployment seen before was 24 Rafales + 2 E-2 + 3-4 Helos.

Since its refit, the number of Rafales went up to 30 due to removal of Super Etendard kit on board. This deployment is clearly testing the new limit, since this is the first time it ever could manage this many Rafales. They have new procedures to learn and make efficient.

That's one thing I l respect about France, they are more aggressive in pursing actually showing capability rather than having it just be "theoretical".

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

QE's aft Phalanx has been fitted!
QE Aft Phalanx.PNG
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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Also Forward Phalanx


Scimitar54
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Scimitar54 »

How about the Port side Forward?

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

Not yet on the port side, no crane currently in position there.
Found some more photos just before the aft one was fitted:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... apons.html

abc123
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by abc123 »

RetroSicotte wrote:
Scimitar54 wrote:26 UK Aircraft
18 US Aircraft

From what point of the compass is there a negative press in that?
Oh trust me, they'll find it.

BRITAIN SO SHORT ON PLANES IT NEEDS AMERICAN ONES ON CARRIER

QUESTIONS ASKED AS MOD TRIES TO PRETEND U.S. JETS ARE BRITISH

SCANDAL AS LEAKY CARRIER NOW DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH PLANES

20 BILLION SPENT, AND WE NEED TO BEG THE U.S. TO PROTECT IT
And the worst part of it, for once the press would be right. :lol:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

It gets confusing comparing apples and oranges the picture of the CdeG shows a full load of the Rafale to defend itself but where ar the rotary units for asw ,is the defence against submarines not important ,certainly enough U.S.N carriers have been embarrassed by submarines of many nations even in exercises when they knew they were coming one or two Fremm,s can have helicopters but not for 24/7 fleet defence with downtime for maintenance for every flying hour .
The defence of the carrier usually more of a systemic approach with other vessels contributing for example the destroyers and frigates and perhaps the submarines and other sources not with the deployment , there has been enough discussion on what can be done to increase the effectiveness of the Daring class capabilities ,these would lead into the defence of the carrier as part of the system .

bobp
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

What about other weapons, I though we were getting a couple of 30mm cannons as well.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

seaspear wrote:It gets confusing comparing apples and oranges the picture of the CdeG shows a full load of the Rafale to defend itself but where ar the rotary units for asw ,is the defence against submarines not important
On their ASW escorts and Mistrals.

You know, the things they'll have twice as many of as the RN.
certainly enough U.S.N carriers have been embarrassed by submarines of many nations even in exercises when they knew they were coming
Old myth, ever untrue. It's the same level as Indians claiming they embarrassed RAF Typhoons with their Su-30s. Training is training.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... rier-20503
also in RIMPAC 2000 H.M.A.S Waller had a very successful excercise Being in the same position to do the U.S.S Abraham Lincoln and a couple of LHD,S and a nuclear sub
In 2016 a Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a U.S.N fleet near the Ronald Reagan off Okinawa providing a surprise
I have not heard that the French navy uses the Mistral with a top speed of 20 knots to supply the asw component to protect its carrier

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

seaspear wrote:https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... rier-20503
also in RIMPAC 2000 H.M.A.S Waller had a very successful excercise Being in the same position to do the U.S.S Abraham Lincoln and a couple of LHD,S and a nuclear sub
The National Interest is pretty much equivilent to linking the Daily Mail in terms of defence reporting.
In 2016 a Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a U.S.N fleet near the Ronald Reagan off Okinawa providing a surprise
There has never been any evidence that they didn't know about it. They were hardly going to sink the thing. The media just threw this into "They didn't know OMG"
I have not heard that the French navy uses the Mistral with a top speed of 20 knots to supply the asw component to protect its carrier
Carrying helos is a main role of their job.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

Try this then
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... war-games/
also consider that the U.S.N also leased the Gotland for one year for further ASW operation studies
Are you able to supply a link to the Mistral acting as the asw helicopter escort ship for the carrier I find it interesting that at 18.8 knots it would be almost ten knots slower than the carrier it would be protecting
https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/05/u ... k-by-subs/ ( French submarine this time)

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RetroSicotte wrote:
I have not heard that the French navy uses the Mistral with a top speed of 20 knots to supply the asw component to protect its carrier
Carrying helos is a main role of their job.
Does Mistral have ASW command center capability? If not, how effectively a NH90 squadron can perform ASW? I understand their analysis power is not as high as that of Merlin, and HMS Ocean as an ASW helicopter carrier was not optimal as was illustrious was. But I do not have enough info here.

May be one of the FREMM ASW become the leading ASW asset to control it, or CdG CIC has its capability, I guess.

I admire French CdG CV and its capability. But, to my memory French navy did not have ASW helo carrier experience nor tactics. After they lost Alize ASW plane, their ASW looks like based on frigates.

As UK has different tactics, very interesting to compare.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »


Abit of fun here

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

seaspear wrote:the U.S.N also leased the Gotland for one year
OK, I am going a bit off the thread, but they do their homework thoroughly:
- they leased one of Norway's superfast missile crafts for the Streetfighter evaluation (before the project took the turn to LCS designs)
- and the same for CB90s (which they then started to build, like Russia does - though without license - in St. Pete. US added a bigger command boat, with better seagoing, so that the rest of the "sqdrn" could be hugging the coast in dispersed ops = a lesson learnt from year-long trials)
... back to biz
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Caribbean »

seaspear wrote:In 2016 a Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a U.S.N fleet near the Ronald Reagan off Okinawa providing a surprise
A former colleague of mine told a similar story of doing the same to a US carrier on exercises in the Med. In their case, they did it at night and, after taking the requisite periscope photos etc, surfaced alongside the carrier and took a flash photo of it, before submerging and leaving. The US carrier group were completely unaware of their presence. He put it down to overconfidence and poor discipline. From recent events, it's seems that that may still be an issue in the USN.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

seaspear wrote:Try this then
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... war-games/
also consider that the U.S.N also leased the Gotland for one year for further ASW operation studies

https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/05/u ... k-by-subs/ ( French submarine this time)
Again, this is all based on training. You are supposed to have an end goal in training. Training then defines future thought. The OMG X BEATS Y is pure media trash.

Do you also believe the hysteria that F-35 can't dogfight an F-16 because of that one "incident" that in truth was just testing paramters?
Are you able to supply a link to the Mistral acting as the asw helicopter escort ship for the carrier I find it interesting that at 18.8 knots it would be almost ten knots slower than the carrier it would be protecting
Max speed isn't how you define those things. It's operational endurance areas, envelopes. It covers all of that nicely. Simply comparing max speed is overly simplified, especially given even carriers don't constantly steam at full. The CdG more than most, since it tops out at about 27 knots, and cannot sustain that.

Also note that the French navy's only main helo that Mistral uses IS their ASW helo. They don't have alternate fleets like the UK does. The NH90 does both. It's pretty much all it carries in an operationally deployed measure.

And even if the Mistrals were put to the side, note that the upcoming French fleet has 15 ASW capable escorts, compared to the UK's 8. And all but two of them using the Captas 4.

They have no problems with ASW.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RetroSicotte wrote:And even if the Mistrals were put to the side, note that the upcoming French fleet has 15 ASW capable escorts, compared to the UK's 8. And all but two of them using the Captas 4.

They have no problems with ASW.
Not sure. French navy has 15 ASW escorts? Yes and no.

French navy are going to have, 15 escorts
- 2 Horizon with only a hull sonar, normal hull.
- 6 FREMM ASW with CAPTAS-4, quiet hull.
- 2 FREDA AAW/ASW with CAPTAS-4, quiet hull.
- 5 FTI frigate with CAPTAS-4CI, normal hull.
- and 22 Atlantique-2 + 21 NH90 + 3 E-2C

RN will have
- 6 T45 with only a hull sonar, normal hull.
- 8 T26(or T23) with CAPTAS-4, quiet hull.
- 5 T31e, may have no sonar, normal hull.
- and 9 P-8A + 30 Merlin (~6 will be AEW)

On escorts, the only difference is the fact that French FTI has CAPTAS-4CI. If it is important, UK can easily add CAPTAS-4CI to all 6 T45s. Then, it will be equivalent to FTI in ASW.

On airplanes, shortage of MPA is the big problem in UK, but it is not zero now.

On CVTF ASW (which is related to THIS thread), QE CV capable of carrying ~9 ASW-Merlins will be a big advantage to French CVTF. (Mistral may be able to carry some more NH90s, but in that case RN can use the new Littoral Strike Ships and MARS-SSS to add more Merlin). Can this advantage cover the lack of "FTI-equivalent ASW escorts"? I guess yes.

However, RN do not need to "compare" with French MN. If more ASW is needed from operational research (OR) in RN, then UK will be needed to add CAPTAS4-CI to T45, or to T31e (or both). It is worth discussing.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

I dont have any issues with the F35 or give weight to some reports on that flight testing , I brought up several examples of how submarines in the past have been able to place themselves in position of advantage against aircraft carriers despite escorts being present and even knowing of the intentions of the submarine in exercises .
I raised this topic because the picture I saw of the nuclear powered French aircraft carrier did not have any asw helicopters ,
On the 30th october 2010 the carrier as part of task group 473 carried 12 Super Etendards 10 Rafale and 2E-2C and had two frigates and an oiler no mention of a Mistral providing asw support.
In 2012 in another patrol the carrier carried seven Rafale 7 Super Entendards and two e-2c with again two frigates likely supplying the asw craft there may have have been a submarine escort but was not stated
I haven't found any reports of the Mistral acting as asw support it doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course ,and what is the downtime for maintenance after every flight hour of the frigate helicopter ? and would the helicopters of the two frigates be considered sufficient by the R.N to protect its carriers

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