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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Feb 2019, 08:42

seaspear wrote:the U.S.N also leased the Gotland for one year
OK, I am going a bit off the thread, but they do their homework thoroughly:
- they leased one of Norway's superfast missile crafts for the Streetfighter evaluation (before the project took the turn to LCS designs)
- and the same for CB90s (which they then started to build, like Russia does - though without license - in St. Pete. US added a bigger command boat, with better seagoing, so that the rest of the "sqdrn" could be hugging the coast in dispersed ops = a lesson learnt from year-long trials)
... back to biz

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 16 Feb 2019, 10:56

seaspear wrote:In 2016 a Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a U.S.N fleet near the Ronald Reagan off Okinawa providing a surprise

A former colleague of mine told a similar story of doing the same to a US carrier on exercises in the Med. In their case, they did it at night and, after taking the requisite periscope photos etc, surfaced alongside the carrier and took a flash photo of it, before submerging and leaving. The US carrier group were completely unaware of their presence. He put it down to overconfidence and poor discipline. From recent events, it's seems that that may still be an issue in the USN.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby RetroSicotte » 16 Feb 2019, 11:42

seaspear wrote:Try this then
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... war-games/
also consider that the U.S.N also leased the Gotland for one year for further ASW operation studies

https://theaviationist.com/2015/03/05/u ... k-by-subs/ ( French submarine this time)

Again, this is all based on training. You are supposed to have an end goal in training. Training then defines future thought. The OMG X BEATS Y is pure media trash.

Do you also believe the hysteria that F-35 can't dogfight an F-16 because of that one "incident" that in truth was just testing paramters?

Are you able to supply a link to the Mistral acting as the asw helicopter escort ship for the carrier I find it interesting that at 18.8 knots it would be almost ten knots slower than the carrier it would be protecting

Max speed isn't how you define those things. It's operational endurance areas, envelopes. It covers all of that nicely. Simply comparing max speed is overly simplified, especially given even carriers don't constantly steam at full. The CdG more than most, since it tops out at about 27 knots, and cannot sustain that.

Also note that the French navy's only main helo that Mistral uses IS their ASW helo. They don't have alternate fleets like the UK does. The NH90 does both. It's pretty much all it carries in an operationally deployed measure.

And even if the Mistrals were put to the side, note that the upcoming French fleet has 15 ASW capable escorts, compared to the UK's 8. And all but two of them using the Captas 4.

They have no problems with ASW.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 16 Feb 2019, 12:24

RetroSicotte wrote:And even if the Mistrals were put to the side, note that the upcoming French fleet has 15 ASW capable escorts, compared to the UK's 8. And all but two of them using the Captas 4.

They have no problems with ASW.
Not sure. French navy has 15 ASW escorts? Yes and no.

French navy are going to have, 15 escorts
- 2 Horizon with only a hull sonar, normal hull.
- 6 FREMM ASW with CAPTAS-4, quiet hull.
- 2 FREDA AAW/ASW with CAPTAS-4, quiet hull.
- 5 FTI frigate with CAPTAS-4CI, normal hull.
- and 22 Atlantique-2 + 21 NH90 + 3 E-2C

RN will have
- 6 T45 with only a hull sonar, normal hull.
- 8 T26(or T23) with CAPTAS-4, quiet hull.
- 5 T31e, may have no sonar, normal hull.
- and 9 P-8A + 30 Merlin (~6 will be AEW)

On escorts, the only difference is the fact that French FTI has CAPTAS-4CI. If it is important, UK can easily add CAPTAS-4CI to all 6 T45s. Then, it will be equivalent to FTI in ASW.

On airplanes, shortage of MPA is the big problem in UK, but it is not zero now.

On CVTF ASW (which is related to THIS thread), QE CV capable of carrying ~9 ASW-Merlins will be a big advantage to French CVTF. (Mistral may be able to carry some more NH90s, but in that case RN can use the new Littoral Strike Ships and MARS-SSS to add more Merlin). Can this advantage cover the lack of "FTI-equivalent ASW escorts"? I guess yes.

However, RN do not need to "compare" with French MN. If more ASW is needed from operational research (OR) in RN, then UK will be needed to add CAPTAS4-CI to T45, or to T31e (or both). It is worth discussing.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 16 Feb 2019, 13:27

I dont have any issues with the F35 or give weight to some reports on that flight testing , I brought up several examples of how submarines in the past have been able to place themselves in position of advantage against aircraft carriers despite escorts being present and even knowing of the intentions of the submarine in exercises .
I raised this topic because the picture I saw of the nuclear powered French aircraft carrier did not have any asw helicopters ,
On the 30th october 2010 the carrier as part of task group 473 carried 12 Super Etendards 10 Rafale and 2E-2C and had two frigates and an oiler no mention of a Mistral providing asw support.
In 2012 in another patrol the carrier carried seven Rafale 7 Super Entendards and two e-2c with again two frigates likely supplying the asw craft there may have have been a submarine escort but was not stated
I haven't found any reports of the Mistral acting as asw support it doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course ,and what is the downtime for maintenance after every flight hour of the frigate helicopter ? and would the helicopters of the two frigates be considered sufficient by the R.N to protect its carriers

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 16 Feb 2019, 13:48

seaspear wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Kv4rqR6RQ
Abit of fun here
It is the Collins class SSK aiming at JMSDF Asagiri-class DD. Because it has 2d radar, it is one of the first 4 hulls and not the later 4. Asagiri DD is a early 1990s ASW escort with passive TASS. If Collins cannot beat them, it will be a big problem for the SSK. Asagiri DD is not capable of overwhelming modern SSK in singleton. JMSDF is only recently introducing active-passive TASS.

Another ship in the video is FFG-7 class, presumably RAN Adelaide class. It even not has a TASS, but just a hull sonar. Very limited change such escort can hunt SSK. No surprise.

It will be more an issue that,
- if the Collins class's torpedo can hit Asagiri DD or Adelaide FFG, overcoming the soft kill (although Asagiri has old anti-torpedo decoy, new DDs have better ones)
- and also if the SSK can escape from the swarming P-3C and SH60 to hunt them.

I think, SSKs can sometimes sink CV (at least), sneaking into the CVTF ASW. But, I am not sure how frequent it is.

Anyway, CAPTAS-pinging escorts wandering around the CVTF will be nice. Also, having a few pinging Merlins at air "24hours a day/7days a week" will also be important. SSK will surely detect ASW escort from 100 miles away (because they are pinging), but may find difficulty to reach near. As torpedo is very slow, they need to go near the enemy, especially to avoid soft kill.

This is my understanding. (just accumulating many comments around from RN, Italian navy and JMSDF guy's interview. Just impression, though, I agree)

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 16 Feb 2019, 14:04

What happens if there is more than one submarine firing a multitude of torpedos ,I believe it was discussed that the Darings could not be fitted with the Captas 4 but possibly Captas 2 ?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Caribbean » 16 Feb 2019, 14:22

seaspear wrote:What happens if there is more than one submarine firing a multitude of torpedos

Hope the decoys work? I guess that's what SSTD is there for.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 16 Feb 2019, 14:29

seaspear wrote:What happens if there is more than one submarine firing a multitude of torpedos ,I believe it was discussed that the Darings could not be fitted with the Captas 4 but possibly Captas 2 ?
Not sure. But if the CVTF allowed "a few" SSK to come within there vicinity, it will be very difficult to defend the CVF.

CAPTAS-4 and CAPTAS-4CI differs a lot. I will post it in escort thread now. In short, CAPTAS-2 needs only 30% of the foot print of CAPTAS-4. But, CAPTAS-4 CI also needs "only" 54% of CAPTAS-4.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Halidon » 16 Feb 2019, 15:39

seaspear wrote:https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-one-tiny-swedish-submarine-sunk-us-aircraft-carrier-20503
also in RIMPAC 2000 H.M.A.S Waller had a very successful excercise Being in the same position to do the U.S.S Abraham Lincoln and a couple of LHD,S and a nuclear sub
In 2016 a Chinese submarine surfaced in the middle of a U.S.N fleet near the Ronald Reagan off Okinawa providing a surprise
I have not heard that the French navy uses the Mistral with a top speed of 20 knots to supply the asw component to protect its carrier

The exercise examples and the instances of uninvited nations "popping up" in/around carrier group ops are only superficially similar.

Exercises are built around scenarios, organizers frequently hand out advantages and handicaps as well as craft rules and circumstances to set specific challenges. It's for those reasons that, while the scoreboard matters, I tend to dislike when people use that scoreboard as their only gauge of results or claim that only the "winning" side of the exercise can feel good about it.

The pop-ups are difficult to gauge because there's so much often left unstated about what happened. Was the group acting in accordance with proper ASW doctrine and giving the infiltrator a challenge? Or, due to failures in the group or orders from above, were they steaming along fat, dumb, and happy? There's no question the pop-ups can be embarrassing, but they may point to leadership and training problems more than equipment or doctrine failures.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Pongoglo » 16 Feb 2019, 18:03

bobp wrote:What about other weapons, I though we were getting a couple of 30mm cannons as well.


Four....

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby bobp » 16 Feb 2019, 18:45

Pongoglo wrote:Four....


Hopefully that will be enough coupled with the Phalanx. Lets hope they never get tested for real. There has been a lot of talk about QE going to Chinese waters, but I don't think that will be soon, as this year it has to complete F35 trials plus a period in dry dock.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ThunderPants » 16 Feb 2019, 18:45

What has anything in the last page have to do with the queen Elizabeth???

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby RetroSicotte » 16 Feb 2019, 18:49

seaspear wrote:I haven't found any reports of the Mistral acting as asw support it doesn't mean it doesn't happen of course ,and what is the downtime for maintenance after every flight hour of the frigate helicopter ? and would the helicopters of the two frigates be considered sufficient by the R.N to protect its carriers

When have they ever deployed against submarines to need to do it?

The Mistrals have better things to be doing than handling that role when they're not needed to.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 16 Feb 2019, 21:54

I believe your earlier post inferred the Mistral to carry the asw component for the carrier group

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby swoop » 17 Feb 2019, 01:55

SKB wrote:
QE Aft Phalanx.PNG

Rather interesting that the tents are back over the main landing spots for the Dave-B's.

It could get interesting if the thermal paint isn't up to the task...

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Gabriele » 17 Feb 2019, 08:37

From the reports it was the deck lightning that did not fully satisfy. Making some changes to that.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 17 Feb 2019, 10:04

ThunderPants wrote:What has anything in the last page have to do with the queen Elizabeth???


What I was trying to raise in discussion was the ability of submarines to present a threat to modern aircraft carriers ,and that submarines in their own way are as stealthy as any flying threat and can get a lot closer than stealth aircraft , it does not make sense for an argument to crowd the aircraft carrier with the F35 to "protect itself " if this is at the expense of aircraft that protect it from a different and real threat

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 18 Feb 2019, 15:32

A short video that was broadcast live today, a Portsmouth Harbour boat tour....


(JJ Model Making) 18 Feb 2019

No Phalanx on the forward-port side or its crane there yet.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby sea_eagle » 18 Feb 2019, 19:46

seaspear wrote:Captain Kyd has said in the past of military drones flying off the carrier as inevitable , Is there a dedicated program for the design and introduction of such ,the cost to fly these types of aircraft could be significantly less than a manned aircraft for some duties ,

shark bait wrote:Short answer is no.

The RN had a couple of efforts to get a project going, but I don't think any of them got the funding needed. The best bet now would be to get working with the USMC on their drone project.

Jake1992 wrote:I’ve mentioned this on the LSS thread the USMC are currently looking at developing the Bell V-247, this is a tilt rotar drone based on the V-280. At the moment there are 2 variants planed and AEW format ( which I think would a better fit than crows nest ) this is planed to have a 24,000ft plus ceiling and an on station time if 12hrs so 3 of these could give a better 24hr cover age than the merlins while also free the merlins up.


Small update here:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/unmanned-force-multipliers-being-considered-for-use-on-queen-elizabeth-carriers/
The US Air Force Chief Scientist in 2017 said that F-35 pilots will be able to control a small group of drones flying nearby from the aircraft cockpit in the air, performing sensing, reconnaissance and targeting functions.

With whatever results from Tempest being able to use swarming technology to control drones and the F-35 becoming capable of doing so, it is only logical that capability will come into use.


But as is often the case its' jam tomorrow :roll:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Feb 2019, 20:16

US Air Force Chief Scientist in 2017 said


This
was in 2016.
- of course, from micro-drones to an unmanned wingman there is quite a way to go

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jensy » 19 Feb 2019, 00:53

During Defence Questions today in the Commons they discussed Phalanx and the potential for a fourth one from 34:20. Julian Lewis seems to have taken it as a new crusade:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0c55s9l/house-of-commons-live-defence-questions

Few key points:

- They are only fitting two for the time being, with a third to be introduced towards the end of 2020.
- All three for PoW will be fitted in 2020.
- Lewis claims there are some spares knocking about.

Jensy

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 19 Feb 2019, 09:14

Jensy wrote: Lewis claims there are some spares knocking about.


The latest count seems to be approaching 50 (all upgrades now complete?). I wonder if they are hoarding some for RFA ships... still to be built!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jensy » 19 Feb 2019, 09:27

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote: Lewis claims there are some spares knocking about.


The latest count seems to be approaching 50 (all upgrades now complete?). I wonder if they are hoarding some for RFA ships... still to be built!


Intriguing! Maybe the carrier's might yet get a fourth.

That said, nobody tell the secretary of state. He'll be fitting half a dozen Phalanx on the roof of an Airlander to serve as our new airborne-anti ballistic missile defence system....

I assume we took the three off Ocean when she went South?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Scimitar54 » 19 Feb 2019, 11:30

Well, at least she did not "go west"!


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